Doctors!

[Neal]

So my Doctor is worried that if he signs the forms for me and I am stupid enough to go get behind the wheel after self medicating, that anyone killed or injured as a result of my impairment could sue him. He resents, as probably most Doctors do, that government politicians have passed the buck on the issue to them. "It's either legal or it's not". Can't blame him though really. So even after seeing a specialist (who would not sign) my GP still won't sign. Like he says I don't have a clue about dosage or anything about it. He is against smoking of any kind and the fact that I medicate through canna butter and cookies didn't sway him. He doesn't think the Medical release form means anything at all and he gave me examples similar paper that means nothing and explained the type of support Doctors can expect from the insurer.
Just wondering if there might be a legal opinion on this out there? Anyone have a reasonable answer to his question? My Doctor has been my Doctor for probably 25+ years and knows me and has treated me all that time. I've done everything he told me to do and swallowed every damn pill.
Sorry for the rant. Just got home from his office and after all the this time and effort I am still at square one.
Neal.

[coco_artist]

Neal....Don't give up.

It took me five years to get an exemption.

I have stage three kidney Cancer currently in remission
suspected bladder cancer that I had surgery for that grew back
brain aneurisms
IBS
PTSD
Dystonia (a movement disorder)
Fibro
Arthritis
Hypothryoidism
just to name a few things.............now with all this........

it took 5 YEARS!

Just don't give up.

(I always said I would get my exemption at the last minute, and with the weight loss I am experiencing, I am really looking forward to my first legal crop.)

[Neal]

Thanks for the words of encouragement coco artist! With all you have going on I would have figured you to be a shoe in on first request. 5 Years! Wow! I have considerably more time to put in to reach 5 years. I have said it before, I shall persevere.
Neal.

[Miranda]

Orignally posted by Neal :
he says I don't have a clue about dosage or anything about it

Same old story isn't it? :mad:

Unfortunately the majority of doctors have NO CLUE about this though med patients do! We use when we need it and since we're all individuals using for a complexity of conditions the amounts will vary from person to person. Who knows better than ourselves what we can tolerate! Certainly not some smug whitecoat that believes the 'Reefer Madness" mythology and doesn't think we should be using anyways.

What hypocrisy for the CMA to even have that release note when on the other hand they've advised their membership not to sign it - no wonder it's not worth the paper it's written on!

Personally I don't believe doctors should be prescribing it - we've all been figuring out what we need on our own. Why would anyone trust them to do what's right? We've all heard about the few ones who have signed caving into pressure from HC to keep amounts low.

INSANITY prevails - HC & whitecoats who know NOTHING about this and refuse to educate themselves are the very ones we are relying on to help us through and they WON'T!

The only real solution is to LEGALIZE it and completely take it out of the hands of whitecoats that sit in judgement and disapproval that only add stress to our already compromised systems.

[stirling]

So my Doctor is worried that if he signs the forms for me and I am stupid enough to go get behind the wheel after self medicating, that anyone killed or injured as a result of my impairment could sue him.

Neal,
I can't say I blame him for wanting to cover his ass.
I've often wondered about what their liability would be if something happened to you or someone else while you were "under the influence".

But then ... I wonder the same thing about all the other psychoactive s*** they're prescribing.
The only thing the pharmaceuticals got going for them is they've got the FDA seal of approval.

Best of luck to you.

~

[Miranda]

I can't say I blame him for wanting to cover his ass.
I've often wondered about what their liability would be if something happened to you or someone else while you were "under the influence".

I respectfully disagree - I DO blame them for not covering my ass!:mad:
What happens to persons who have been prescribed a pharmaceutical that lands them in the hospital or who has had numerous serious allergic reactions while 'under the influence' of legal drugs? Where's the logic in not allowing someone to use a substance that is not harming them but helping them cope to lead a productive life? ! Control freaks the lot of them trying to shove expensive pills that they KNOW have the potential to harm us - all you have to do is listen to the ad disclaimers on TV to know that these legal drugs have the potential to be REALLY DANGEROUS!

[Neal]

I hear you! No arguments on either points of view as they can be combined. Whether or not the Dr. is really concerned about his liability or it is just a stall his point about putting it on the Dr's. shoulders is valid. I remember Mr. Alan Young speak at Mr. Rende's Cannabis Awareness Forum this year in Toronto on April 20, 2007., where he briefly mentioned this exact conundrum that Drs. face with this program. I only wish I had the money to get a few legal opinions on the subject from Mr. Young because when I mentioned is name in conversation with my GP he recognized it. Now I asked my doctor what the difference would be if I was impaired by cannabis or a prescription drug or even cough syrup when fighting a cold. His response was that with prescriptions you get warnings and with cannabis you don't. (Now remember I don't there is any training in the medical use of cannabis in med school so his concerns are somewhat legit.) He is worried, lets say if I kill some one while I am driving and a third party sues him in civil court. Yes, I know him and he knows me and that I am responsible but in his devils advocate position and in this a litigious society he could lose his shirt. He has no confidence in the Canadian Medical Protection and he gave me an excellent example to prove it that I won't post here.
Who would have though I would need a lawyer for this process eh?
Neal.

[pierre drouin]

my familly DR told me that the laws where gonna change for guys like me or us.

after going to see twice a week for 2 years he finnaly just told me he would never signed.

so i get pissed off and borrowed tons of money and went from one DR to the other all across ontario.

then i got lucky or it was by the grace of god i found my DR i now have that signed for me.took nearly 3 years of traveling and getting treated like a junky or major drug addict for asking for my choice in meds.

not to sound like am complaining but now in order to keep this exemption i need to travel 28 hours on the bus every 3 months to go have a follow up with this DR ,i need to take a piss test to prove am medicating with what i have prescribed to me and now he cant raise my prescription because of the governement.

well people quit wining on line and get off your asses and fight just like am doing.

it s not sitting on our asses wining all day long that shit is gonna get fixes or changed. i wish more exemptee that do have some power would fight with us.this bullshit about not beeing about to have the proper dosage in medication is totally unconstitutionel.who are these retarded pencil pushing morons that have no clue what so ever about medical merijuana telling our DR s how to do there jobs.

pot needs to just be legalize and thats it thats all case close already fuck:mad:

but not enough people fighting together so they always win.

am sorry about your bad luck neal and i know how terrible this fells,not beeing able to receive the proper help you need i ll say it again it s unconstitunionel what they are doing to sick people.WE MUST FIGHT BACK PEOPLE.it s unconstitutionel that they keep busting anyone for that matter since pot as been legal since 2001 Terry Parker Day and cultivating it since 2002 Grant Krieger Day.

anyways hope to see all you activist at the hempfest will be there to party hard and tell ya more on the fight to legalize:)

P.S.dont give up neal someone told me patience was a vitue and because of it my hard head got me my permit 3 years later ,i felt like giving up 100 s of times but didn t you will win my friend keep fighting for what you beleive in and keep your head up:rolleyes:

[Neal]

Don't get me wrong. I would not drive impaired! However if the worst was to happen and I was found to have it in my system from days before what smart lawyer would not use that in court? I certainly am far from rich so they would naturally go after the doctor who signed my forms. Besides both me and the Dr. don't have to register with Health Canada for most prescriptions. I did have to sign waivers with them once when I was in a trial for a medication not yet approved which I guess is similar to the Cannabis regs. Funny that liability wasn't an issue back then eh?

[Neal]

my familly DR told me that the laws where gonna change for guys like me or us.

after going to see twice a week for 2 years he finnaly just told me he would never signed.

so i get pissed off and borrowed tons of money and went from one DR to the other all across ontario.

then i got lucky or it was by the grace of god i found my DR i now have that signed for me.took nearly 3 years of traveling and getting treated like a junky or major drug addict for asking for my choice in meds.

not to sound like am complaining but now in order to keep this exemption i need to travel 28 hours on the bus every 3 months to go have a follow up with this DR ,i need to take a piss test to prove am medicating with what i have prescribed to me and now he cant raise my prescription because of the governement.

well people quit wining on line and get off your asses and fight just like am doing.

it s not sitting on our asses wining all day long that shit is gonna get fixes or changed. i wish more exemptee that do have some power would fight with us.this bullshit about not beeing about to have the proper dosage in medication is totally unconstitutionel.who are these retarded pencil pushing morons that have no clue what so ever about medical merijuana telling our DR s how to do there jobs.

pot needs to just be legalize and thats it thats all case close already fuck:mad:

but not enough people fighting together so they always win.

am sorry about your bad luck neal and i know how terrible this fells,not beeing able to receive the proper help you need i ll say it again it s unconstitunionel what they are doing to sick people.WE MUST FIGHT BACK PEOPLE.it s unconstitutionel that they keep busting anyone for that matter since pot as been legal since 2001 Terry Parker Day and cultivating it since 2002 Grant Krieger Day.

anyways hope to see all you activist at the hempfest will be there to party hard and tell ya more on the fight to legalize:)

P.S.dont give up neal someone told me patience was a vitue and because of it my hard head got me my permit 3 years later ,i felt like giving up 100 s of times but didn t you will win my friend keep fighting for what you beleive in and keep your head up:rolleyes:

I might get discouraged, but I won't give up!
Thanks,
Neal.

[Cannabishop]

I have to agree with Pierre!

It has also taken me about three years to get my own license. I went to my own GP and she flat out compared weed to heroine. This is especially funny since 60% of her practice is injecting rat poison (Botox) into people's faces.

Next Doc is very familiar to med patients in my area and all he wanted me to do was piss in a cup and get tested for ADHD.

I have been seeing the same specialist for years and he had no problem with the weed but didn't feel it was his place to sign.

Finally got my new doc 6 months ago and should have my card this week.

Once I convinced myself that nothing was going to stop me from getting my license it seemed like I started to meet the right people and the universe aligned itslef to my cause.

Keep fighting and don't let anyone convince you otherwise.

If you need some additional material or research to send to you doc let me know and I can find just about anything. If I can help out with a ride somewhere let me know.

I will also be seeing my doc in the next week or two and I will ask if I can send you her name and info.

She doesn't just hand out licenses.

You will have to follow all the guidelines and prove to her that you are educated and have considered all other options. She will also wand to know that your specialist (if you are a cat 2 exemptee) concurs with your desicion.

Peace,
Jimmy

[Neal]

Thanks Cannabishop!
I have been seeing this GP for probably 25 years or more and the Doctor (who died young) in the same office before him. My history is documented since I was about five years old and was first taken to Doctors for headaches and that is over fifty years ago.
Now they seem to blame it on my scoliosis and screwed up spine. I try to tell them that the headaches were there before the spine curved and I had a fusion. Maybe related, but still the self medication works what ever the cause. Now, and funny you should mention this, but they want to shoot my head with Botox. I keep telling them enough is enough and I am sick of experimenting when I know what works to help me. I know it's only a migraine and most people would just say, Oh go take an "F-in" aspirin. There are many people way, way worse off than me, and I don't mean to whine. It's more of a rant than a whine, I hope.
I think I'll go watch my DVD from Mr. Rende's Cannabis Awareness Forum again. It is excellent and reassures me that there are smart people out there working on our behalf and fighting for what is right. People with the gift of being able to speak to a room full of people and press, with knowledge and articulately on the subject.
Neal.

[bubner]

what about nurse practitioners? if a doctor or specialist won't assist with your exemption ask other regulated health care professionals if they would. you are their client and all they can do is say no.

[Neal]

what about nurse practitioners? if a doctor or specialist won't assist with your exemption ask other regulated health care professionals if they would. you are their client and all they can do is say no.

Not a bad idea however, and unfortunately, my holistic practitioner moved to the U.S. about six months ago and even then I don't think she would have signed. She did however change my diet and got me to lose 30 pounds fairly easily. (boy I miss red meat and bread and...) Only saw her for about a year anyways. Not enough time for a history with her.
I think If I could get a legal opinion on my Doctor's concerns it 'might' help put him over the edge on the question. Still I think any lawyer would tell you any liability issues would be case dependent at the very least, and my GP would shoot holes in any generalities.
Neal.

[nikoatnight]

OMG......just a mingrain:eek: :eek: I'm 43 and suffered with them since 12 and my 13 yr son started at 7. I've been through alot of pain in my life and nothing compares to a mingrain. I'll pretty much take anything else but a mingrain, especially the ones I have ...ever try puking while your brains are trying to ozzzzzzzz outta every hole in your head for 10 hrs straight:eek: :eek: :eek: not a pretty sight. Take care

[GreenThumb]

If you think doctors are not in league with the drug companies then watch this video.
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-2502546838698762400

[Pain Pal]

Hope you can find a Dr that will sign for you real soon Neil.
Peace & Puff
John

[Hammer]

it is sad that it is so hard to get a doc to sign a paper for you... I'm in New York State, USA and tryingt o get mmj here.. even so the feds can come after you.

Canada being med friendly still only has like 1.500+ mmj patients...

I wish you the best...

I myself am a Persian Gulf Vet.. with alot of physical illness and find weed helps me.. so, for now.. I break the law

:cool:

[lequebecfume]

Hammer Brother,

With hope that the NY MMJ bill pass to law a.s.a.p. to help out NY medical patients.

I am in my 5th year of trying, diagnosed with chronic pain at 16, crohn's from all the years of NSAIDs ? damn good chance... Fully blown Ankylosing Spondulitis for the last 3 years. Going in today for the sixth time to hospital and still fighting....

Don't give up Neal and Hammer my bro.

LEGALIZE, REGULATE, EDUCATE AND MEDICATE

Stop harassing medical patients ofr using medical marijuana


LEQ

[neutrino99]

In Canada it is not acceptable for a Nurse Practitioner to sign...or a naturopath or a chiropractor....I find this appalling as well...but the only regulated Health Care Professionals allowed to sign for us at the moment are those that are legally registered and licensed to prescibe drugs. Sorry bout the bad news....I have two natural Drs willing to sign but they can't. If they could...they likely wouldnt be able to! This is our cross and we have to change it.

If Ankylosing Spondilytis doesnt qualify I never will....sheesh. What is wrong with these folks...if they had our pain for just one day they would fight our fight too.

[Cannabishop]

The more I read the posts the more I wonder how lucky I have been to get my license?

Have people really needed to see more than 3 docs to find one to sign?

What about specialists, are they that hard to get to sign as well?

I have been seeing my specialist for 6 years and have been talking about mj since. After that I found a gp to sign after trying three. Truth be told, I could have gotten it one the second doc if I followed up with info and visits better.

I am not trying to boast but I am wondering (NOT ASSUMING) how hard it can be?

For me personally, and I am not making a judgement OF ANY KIND about anyone else's situation, it was more about how much effort I put into it rather than who I saw.

I should also note that I am getting my license due to Grave's Disease (a thyroid disease) and ADHD and it seems many of the people here have MUCH better reasons for a license than I do.

Confused,
Jimmy

[neutrino99]

This has been my ONLY job for the last three years. I have seen repeated specialists and they keep referring me for consults to others to try to find anyone that will sign. So far no good and I DO have many many reasons.

I have a letter now that says they all (3 collective specialists) believe it is the ONLY medical alternative for me but they wont sign due to the "political and legal issues"........

Please tell me WHO these MJ friendly Dr's are....my Dr.s will refer me complete with a package of my medical Hx and most important test results (ActuallY I carry a full extra copy of this around with me and this has cost a fortune to amass....more than 300 medical reports, assessments, letters, X-rays, CT's and MRI's.) I also carry the MMAR forms with me everywhere just hoping and praying that the next time I ask I wont hear NO again. I can barely hear it again...I always break down for days....but I will not stop trying. I will even fly out of province if anyone anywhere can get me a name of some Dr that will be willing to sign my forms. I use about 15 - 20 g daily and have for well over the last two years....DOWN from what I used to use as I have added Cesamet (840/mo) and Sativex (when I can get samples as I cant afford it and Trillium wont pay for it even with a reccomendation) to the pile. I cannot take more Cesamet as they would like as it makes me dizzy and drunk and I cannot judge distances properly (always walking into door frames) it also contributes to the constant naseau as I didnt have it so bad (even with the Crohns) before I began Cesamet and was using MJ only.

Am about to go for another 2000 dollar assessment of my low back by DIgital Motion X-ray to demonstrate torn ligaments (Ligamentous Instability) and the reason for the back pain....all of this has already been proven in my cervical spine and I get 17-22 injections of Marcaine weekly (the legal MAX for local anesthetic) from the neck up. They put them in my neck, shoulders, skull and face. joy joy joy.


If you have those names........my PMs have room. :D :cool:

[Neal]

The more I read the posts the more I wonder how lucky I have been to get my license?

Have people really needed to see more than 3 docs to find one to sign?

What about specialists, are they that hard to get to sign as well?

I have been seeing my specialist for 6 years and have been talking about mj since. After that I found a gp to sign after trying three. Truth be told, I could have gotten it one the second doc if I followed up with info and visits better.

I am not trying to boast but I am wondering (NOT ASSUMING) how hard it can be?

For me personally, and I am not making a judgement OF ANY KIND about anyone else's situation, it was more about how much effort I put into it rather than who I saw.

I should also note that I am getting my license due to Grave's Disease (a thyroid disease) and ADHD and it seems many of the people here have MUCH better reasons for a license than I do.

Confused,
Jimmy

Just my opinion, but I would be applying in Category 2 and that is (IMO again) maybe a little harder.
I gathered as much information as I could. Read lots of books and watched several DVD's. Just so I would be knowledgeable or as knowledgeable as I could.
I decided to start with my GP as he has been my Doctor for years and knows my history. I think, and it is only a feeling, that if I could answer my Doctor's question of liability outside of the release form things might go smoother. This guy has pumped a lot of Demerol into me for my headaches and knows I don't drive after that. For years (over twenty years ago) I swallowed enough Fiorinol C 1/2 to sink a ship to stop the pain until I realized I was getting analgesic rebound and the drug was causing more harm than good. Driving and accident liability was never an issue then, even though two Fiorinol in eight hours and you are impaired to drive.
Like I say, if I had have known my Doctors legal liability questions back when I attended Mr. Renda's Cannabis Awareness Forum in April, I would have tried to get some free legal advice/opinions from Mr. Young. I was thinking of writing to the Professor, but I am sure he is out of my price range. Anyway for now, if I haven't mentioned this already, I am going to lend the CAF DVD to my Doctor and hopefully he will find the time to watch it. Maybe then I will have to shop for another Doctor to sign and then I'll be asking for names, but for now, better the devil you know.
Neal.

[Cannabishop]

Neut,
I am meeting with my doc in the next 2 weeks and will talk to her about your situation. If she agrees, I will give you her information and make any necessary arrangements to get you to her office. I can pick you up and drop you off if needed.
IMO she is a doctor for the right reasons, patients, and if I was able to show my medical need for cannabis I am positive you and neal will both have no trouble. Out of fairness to my doc I do have to ask her permission first.
One of the other doctors I visited was a little pissed that I got his name from the internet without his patient asking him first.
I am also approaching her to be on the board of my website to help make it easier for patients to get their license. If all goes well she will also be able to provide me the names of other physicians who share her ideas about using cannabis as a medicine.
I will pm you as soon as I know what's up.
Peace,
Jimmy

[Cannabishop]

[QUOTE=Neal]Like I say, if I had have known my Doctors legal liability questions{/QUOTE]
I can't understand what doctors are so worried about. With the indemnification form from the Canadian Medical Protective Association there should be no legal concerns.
The CMPA is one of their own associations. Run by doctors for doctors.
There appears to be a lot of misinformation being passed on to physicians about their liabilities.
Because marijuana is a scrip, it is considered medicine. If you operate a motor vehicle while under the influence of a pharma or cough syrup or cannabis or even alcohol, you are breaking the law. NOT YOUR DOC.
I am not aware of any civil cases against docs in Ontario for patients who have caused harm while on meds. I have my lawyer looking into it though just to confirm but I just don't see that as a valid reason to not sign. ESPECIALLY when people like Neut have docs who believe him about his medical need for marijuana, but are simply unwilling to write their names on a scrip due to peer pressure.
God I hope my doc becomes a Crusader for patient's rights!!!
I have to go clean wallpaper paste off my walls so I can paint them.
Peace,
Jimmy

[cannarchist]

I have a similar scenario with my MD...so I am showing him that I am trying to help take it out of his hands...I do not have the option of finding a new Doctor...there are so many here in Ontario that don't even have one and have to rely on a walk in clinic...besides the cannabis issue he is a good diagnostician (I cannot say if he believes cannabis works or not - I tend to think he can see the results it has on me by some of his comments, but he WILL NOT get involved with it.)

I have been corresponding with my Member of Parliament and he recently forwarded a letter to the minister of justice on my behalf...


August 9, 2007

Honourable Rob Nicholson, P.C., M.P.
Minister of Justice
House of Commons
Ottawa, ON K1A 0A6

Dear Minister Nicholson

RE: Law pertaining to use of marijuana for medical purposes

I have recently been contacted by an informed constituent who has brought to my attention a situation which appears to be discriminatory or, at the very least, inconsistent in its application from one Canadian to another.

My constituent suffers from rheumatoid arthritis and, due to this malady, was in receipt of disability benefits several years ago.

To his credit and with the pain control benefits of cannabis he is able to live a productive, fulfilling life. Regrettably, my constituent’s physician refuses to sign my constituent’s application for exemption, even though he fully qualifies.

My constituent’s wife ahs also faced significant health issues, specifically, she has contracted Crohn’s disease. Unlike her husband, she has obtained her physician’s signature and the physician’s full support. However, she is not provided with clear answers from Health Canada and the specialist to whom she was referred will not endorse its use either “morally” or medically related to her Crohn’s disease.

Simply put, my constituent is concerned about the state of the law and the inconsistent application of the law. I look forward to hearing from you with respect to what steps, if any, the Department of Justice will be taking to address the law pertaining to the use of marijuana for medical purposes.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours truly


Lloyd St. Amand, M.P.
Brant


we need all the help we can get.

[Neal]

[QUOTE=Neal]Like I say, if I had have known my Doctors legal liability questions{/QUOTE]
I can't understand what doctors are so worried about. With the indemnification form from the Canadian Medical Protective Association there should be no legal concerns.
The CMPA is one of their own associations. Run by doctors for doctors.
There appears to be a lot of misinformation being passed on to physicians about their liabilities.
Because marijuana is a scrip, it is considered medicine. If you operate a motor vehicle while under the influence of a pharma or cough syrup or cannabis or even alcohol, you are breaking the law. NOT YOUR DOC.
I am not aware of any civil cases against docs in Ontario for patients who have caused harm while on meds. I have my lawyer looking into it though just to confirm but I just don't see that as a valid reason to not sign. ESPECIALLY when people like Neut have docs who believe him about his medical need for marijuana, but are simply unwilling to write their names on a scrip due to peer pressure.
God I hope my doc becomes a Crusader for patient's rights!!!
I have to go clean wallpaper paste off my walls so I can paint them.
Peace,
Jimmy

Thanks Cannabishop! Have fun with the wall paper paste.
Neal.

[Neal]

My Doctor just called. He said absolutely "No Way!" after checking with his lawyer buddy.
Too afraid of being sued if something goes wrong. He says the release means nothing and any law student could get around it.
As far as it being a prescription he said he can be charged if some one runs over some one while they are impaired by any drug while in his care. He is responsible! He has to over see and make sure that the patient is taking the meds as prescribed. Some how with Cannabis it's different I guess.
Man I am so upset. All this work and visits to specialists and shit. Time wasted trying to do things the right way.
Thanks for all you help and support people. Sorry things didn't work out.
Neal.

[neutrino99]

Cannabisshop - I dont know what to say ...... I cant thank you enough for taking any interest in my problems. Of course I would expect you to ask your Dr if she would consider being a "consultant" on my case. All my pain specialists are willing to continue my care and monitor my use of any medications .... they just won;t sign my MMAR.

PS - as a side note....if you subscribe to TYAMJ.....check out Issue # 7 page 76...thats me smiling at you.....IM A GIRL!!!! :D :cool:

[Neal]

How's the water? That's quite the halo. The yellow thingy. Just kidding.
Great picture.
Neal.