Low Haze Reciprocal Back Cross

[salmayo]

It's kind of hard to understand the exact method involved in a Reciprocal Back Cross even with a breeding book sitting in front of you. So for lack of terms of description, that's what I'm calling the initial stages of my Low Haze project.

This cross is between Low Ryder (an autoflowering Indica Ruderalis strain) and Haze (a late/long maturing potent low odor Sativa strain). As far a wide crosses go, this is about as wide as it gets, and Haze has a reputation of not cross well with less similar plants. In order to produce plants with the Haze's resin profile and the Low Ryder's autoflowering maturation, a two stage cross is planned to first isolate the Haze's female chromosome in both males and females for breeding, then to inbread to isolate the recessive type autoflowering genetics of the Low Ryder. In addtion to planning the genetic pathways in the cross, sellective pressure will also affect the genetics of the offspring of each cross.

A short breakdown of the generations or stages of diagram below:
P2 I've labelled the individual plants sellected to breed the first cross from the parent strains as P2 rather than P1 because I know the Haze strain is a cross of P1 plants and the Low Ryder is a P1 or at least a P2 generation also.
F1 The first generation of seeds produced will be F1 hybrids of the Haze female and Low Ryder males, resulting in offspring with one chromosome from each parent per each chrosome pair, and 50% autoflowering genetics. The females of these plants will have gender chromosomes from each strain, which would result in 2 in 4 recombinations if inbred with the hydrid males. In order to avoid this in favor or doubt Haze female gender chromosomes, the females at this stage will be disgarded. Since the males will have female gender chromosomes from the Haze, they will be used in the next two stages of breeding.
B1 This first Backcross uses a Haze female with a hybrid male with Haze female gender chromosomes and it's 50% autoflowering genetics. These female B1 offspring have Haze female gender chromosomes and a Maximum of 50% autoflowering genetics, the earliest of which will be used for further breeding. Since the males would have a Maximum of 50% autoflowering genetics, they are disgarded for the next cross, in favor of using the more predictable 50% autoflowering genetics of the F1 generation males.
I1 These plants are the result of an intergenerational backcross inbreeding, or as I'm referring to it here a Reciprocal Back Cross. The earliest females (up to %50 autoflowering genes) were used as parents for this cross combined with %50 autoflowering males of the F1 generation, in order to get the maximum recombination of the autoflowering genetics. The Haze female gender chromosomes are present in both parents and all offspring. Plants in this generation of seeds should have a Maximum of 100% autoflowering genetics, but F2 type variation will produce 1 in 4 auto, 2 in 4 intermediate, and 1 in 4 late maturing plants. The earliest or most autoflowering (and most potent) male and female plants of this generation will be inbred to produce more autoflowering results in the next generation.
I2 This population should have much larger proportion of autoflowering plants similar to an F3 population, the earliest and most potent of which will be used for further inbreeding.
I3 This population should have an F4 type variation and further inbreeding should have less and less variation with each new inbred generation.

[salmayo]

Here's a second try posting the diagram for Post #1, the original GIF didn't work so I'm trying a jpg conversion. It's a little easier to read if you enlarge it or the window, once it's pop up window appears.

[salmayo]

I haven't even made the cross to produce the F1 generation yet, and I'll already facing sellective pressure issues.

I have two Haze females from the same seeds and I will use both of them for the first cross, if only because I tend to make seeds now, since a theft where everything including my seed collection got taken. But, I intend to only use the F1 seeds from one of these Ladies and from the same female to produce the following B1 seeds, which means I'm going to exclude genetics from one of them from the projects gene pool, This will both stabilize the gene pool somewhat, but this also can exclude desirable genetics from the pool at the same time.

This troubles me because the female I'm going to use is later maturing than the other, which would be the wrong way to go if I was trying to preserve that trait rather than eliminate it. That, and I have a tendency to take what seems like the hard route sometimes.

So here, the sellective pressure I'm already exerting would seem to be applying pressure in the wrong way in one respect, but there are many comparative traits the sellected female has that I consider (comparatively) positive. She has less of a tendency to yellow than the other, and yellowing which is one trait I have sellected to avoid. She has thicker stems which I like. She has some nice purple highlights one the stems and nodes, which is a lower priority, but nice. So of the 10 traits I sellect for, she has three that stand out as comparatively better and one supposedly poorer trait that I'm replacing as a breeding priority anyway.

I try to use 10 traits for sellective pressure, since the plant has 10 chromosome pairs and I figure 10 traits is basically plenty, with 1024 recombinations.

I don't presume that each trait is carried on a separate chromosome or that sellecting a trait means that specific chromosomes are being isolated, but I do operate here under the presumption that gene crossover between chromosomes is negligable and I am neglecting it to simplify matters.

I even plan the reduce grow time of the second F1 male used to produce the I1 generation, instead of reusing the older original F1 male used to produce the B1 generation, in order to reduce the probability of chromosome gene crossovers by limiting the seed/plants growth time or specifically the number of gene replications occuring during cell devisions, which is when gene crossovers most likely occur. Reusing the older F1 male would bring with it a greater probability of gene crossovers during the greater number of cell devisions occuring over time. Using the second F1 male conceptually does not stablize the gene pool as much as using the same older F1 male again, neglecting for gene crossovers between strain chromosomes, but here the pressure applied at this stage of this breeding plan is to exclude/include specific genetic STRAIN traits rather than individual plant traits on chromosomes, and specifically trying to keep the genetic traits on the chromosomes intact (avoiding crossover) in order exclude/include them chromosomally.

This not a factor in later sellective pressure, once critical traits, such as autoflowering and resin profile, have been isolated in both the sellected male and female plants. And once this is done, then methods like cubing can used to sellect for secondary traits, but in this breeding plan sellected controlled crosses will be used to maximize stablizing the new strain from the I1 generation on to possilby I8, which has the equivalent here of a standard cross bred F9 stability.

And yes, ANY suggestions are welcome on how to get to F9 level stability with the desired Autoflower Haze resin profile, using a faster or easier method, especially considering that the objective of the program is to produce a stable genetically/chromosomally homogeneous male.

The only thing worse than the size, time and effort going into this plan, is the goal of producing such a stable male as a source of pollen for making stable Haze crosses for nice even F1 uniformity of the early maturing Haze type offspring, or as a source of pollen for making earlier more potent crosses in general. Males will appear in the I1 generation with both traits, but I'm probably the only person I know who would actually enjoy the F2 type variability in that generation, or the F2 to F3 variability of the such a males immediate offspring.

Now if I can just get these Low Ryders to mature faster by staring at them.

[salmayo]

Two Haze Phenotypes, early and one purple, were pollenated last night with an autoflowering Low Ryder Male.

The queation is, how many weeks will it take for the seeds to mature enough to germinate them, since the Haze takes up to 2 months or more for it's seeds to ripen.

[Kalidi]

I'm excited for you.
hittin the subsribe button. Peace

[Dhevil]

I just gotta ask ya, Why a Lowryder male, as opposed to say, a masterlow male?

Potency and the genetics behind it just weren't so important?

Please inform us.

Oh yeah, who said it takes two months for seeds to mature in any cannabis plant?

[salmayo]

I just gotta ask ya, Why a Lowryder male, as opposed to say, a masterlow male?

Potency and the genetics behind it just weren't so important?

Please inform us.

Oh yeah, who said it takes two months for seeds to mature in any cannabis plant?The Low Ryder was more tried, tested and documented than other Low strains and more readily available when I finally got the seeds. I'm not saying MasterLow isn't a better strain. Low Ryder was the original target strain for a male in this projected and remained so at the time the Low Ryder seeds were germinated.

The potency of the AF gene carrying Low Ryder male is of lesser concern than in other breeding schemes, due to the primary target producing plants with female gender chromosomes only from the Haze females used in the Reciprocal Back Cross.

If you examine the above link to the graph of the crossing method, it's much easier to follow this than by verbal description. And this will be still easier to understand if you remember that one of the basic foundations of this Reciprocal Back Cross plan, is that potency is gender linked (and this will be a primary issue of observation in evaluating the results).

As far as the other genetics of the Low Ryder strain other than potency, there are many that are perhaps more desirable than matching Haze genes, but other than the Hazes THC/Potency/High resin profile, these would differ litte in other Low strains, other than perhaps trichome traits. Perhaps the 3rd generation will lend some information on the extent to which trichome characteristics are gender chromosome linked.

One such trait could be initial flowering extension, which in the Low Ryder male used was rather pronounced if not spindly, something I try to avoid in choosing males, but the LR females from the same seeds were desirably compact, thick stemmed and heavily branched. So this spindly male, may only produce similar male rather than female intial flowering extension.

Secondary extension at flowering maturity should be less of an issue in the females, since the Haze mothers involved are quite compact after the first month of initial flowering extension.

"...who said it takes two months for seeds to mature in any cannabis plant?" I did, after an initial pollenation to make more Haze seeds before eliminating the sellected male from the second batch of seedlings of the same seeds. The seeds seemed to stay liquid filled and green for quite some time, and many seeds continued to be immature for the first month. The seeds taken from sample buds showed the best results in samples taken 9, 10 and 11 weeks after germination, especially concerning darker seed color, which was otherwise pale green as in immature seeds of most strains. During which time I did some research on this and long maturation time for Haze seeds seems common, and they tend to remain at the light green stage longer than the more common strains.

This agrees in character with the long maturation time for potency in Haze flowers, which is the primary motivation for the project.

Earlier seed maturity is one of the traits sellected for, often unintentionally, in the breeding of most strains, and is taken for granted by most growers. Early germination may likewise be unitentionally sellected for, simply because peolpe don't like to wait and tend to pay less attention to later germinating seeds, whose germination percentages fall with time anyway.

On the other hand, slow seed ripenning may be due to the influence of the pollen source to some extent. I just found a seed that would be only 2 weeks old and seems mature enough, but this may be a random pollenation that occured earlier than intended, during the male sellection process. I'll have to examine this sample more and look for other seeds, but it seems unreasonably soon to see such a seed, and the plants are just now showing seeds in the pods.

As the both intentional and unintentional sellective pressures influence the genetic in this line, later maturing seed traits will most likely be bred out wether or not they are linked with later maturing and potency in the flowers.

The Haze is not a plant most indoor growers would prefer to pursue, but such undesirable strains for indoor are often bred with more indoor desirable strains to get the high THC content and deceptively smooth smoking characteristics of just such outdoors only strains.

The main goal of the experiment is to produce an earlier version of Haze type buds. But even if this experiment fails in this, it will serve to demonstrate that therefore potency is not primarily gender (female gender chromosome) linked, an extremely valuable piece of information for any Cannabis breeder. If it is gender linked, then designing crosses such as Reciprocal Back Crosses is worth the effort, but if it is not, then such crosses would appear to require perhaps too much effort.

We shall see...

[salmayo]

I checked the rest of my last 15g sample of about half of the leaf volume of 2 two female Haze clones, and found only one other very immature seed. At about 300 watts of lighting, this 15g chopping brings the g/W up to about .6 gr/Watt so far at week 8/9, and with 4 to 6 weeks to go, a 1+gr/Watt harvest at 12 to 15 weeks flowering (minus seeds) is easily attainable, but considering that the standard 1gr/Watt per 8 weeks standard flowering, this would be 1gr/Watt per 12 to 15 weeks, which is more like a .6 to .8 gr/Watt at an equivalent of a standard 8 weeks.

I'd like to see gr/Watt per week standards or gr/KWatt hours standard getting as much use as the now popular gr/Watt ratio beig used, since estimating electrical cost per gram seems a much more usefull standard than using gr/Watt (often with total grow and/or flowering times being omitted. And, if that's not enough of a headache, since I'm using 11/13, less KWatt hours are being used compared to a longer 12/12 light cycle.

Most likely these 2 seeds were the result of pollen from LR males in the veg area, since I was measuring in the veg area and trimming in the flowering area in order to transfer the one chosen LR male to pollenate the sellected Haze female and one secondary Haze female.

This sizable 15 gram dry weight "sample" chopping, was to provide enough addititonal plant room for the male in the flowering area, and since I had a wanton eye for 1/2 oz. of seedless Haze. At 8/9 weeks of flowering with supplimental FR light, I am convinced the FR is hastenning the flowering process in terms of trichome production and potency/resin profile (up to ~30% faster with 45% to 60% Wide Spectrum floros supplimenting Metal Halide wattage). Further inprovement in ripenning is anticipated in the next 4 to 6 weeks.

2 seeds out of 15 grams isn't that bad as far as pollen control is concerned, given that the pollen contaminated veg area is only about 8 feet from the flower area. I assume the negative pressure exhausting in the veg area held in stray pollen, and these 2 seeds were probably the result of transfer on my body going between the areas without absolute isolating (cleaning).

Last nights check of the seed pods indicated good seed set at 2 weeks from initation of pollenation. The harvest date of the first crosses seeds will be based on seed appearance. At this point the seeds are a very immature white. Given that this batch of seeds is maturing with supplimental Far Red light, the seeds may be mature in another 2 weeks, but some could need up to 6 weeks for the seed majority to mature fully.

I'd like to dry the seeded buds for at least a week in the 75F temperature range before attempting germination for the first F1 male sellection. Most likely this will be by the end of January or first of Febuary, but could be in mid January given that the supplimental FR light seems to be hastening ripening in the flowers by about 30%.

Of the two clones of the favored Haze female, one will be left to ripen in the flowering area, and the other will be spray rinced thoroughly and transferred back to the vegging area for rejuvinating while setting seeds, after sanitizing the flowering area of old pollen first, of course.

I'll try and post another update as soon as some seeds start appearing riper and/or taking any more samples. (You'd think an extra 15gr of very UP Haze laying arround would keep me occupied for awhile, but apparently my friends think you'd be wrong. ;)

[salmayo]

[QUOTE=salmayo]At about 300 watts of lighting, this 15g chopping brings the g/W up to about .6 gr/Watt so far at week 8/9, and with 4 to 6 weeks to go, a 1+gr/Watt harvest at 12 to 15 weeks flowering (minus seeds) is easily attainable, but considering that the standard 1gr/Watt per 8 weeks standard flowering, this would be 1gr/Watt per 12 to 15 weeks, which is more like a .6 to .8 gr/Watt at an equivalent of a standard 8 weeks.
QUOTE]You'd think someone who talks this much about math would know how to do some, and usually math is the air I breath, but for the last three days I've been haunted by this .6 gr/Watt number and thinking it should only be about half of that.

And after giving it some thought, the original number is off by an order of magnatude, due to dropping a decimal point. 15gr at 300 watts is .05 gr/watt rather than .5 gr/watt.

Now .05 gr/watt is pathetically low even for me and my qualitative rather than quantitative approach, but this is for about 1/4 of the flowering space volume with 1/4 to 1/2 the plants being rotated per harvest of a plant that typically takes 12 weeks to flower.

In estimating a gr/watt number for this sampling, 1/4 of a total harvest volume was used and this was 2/3rds of a full 12 week (sometimes 16 week) flowering. So using 15 grams to estimate what an equivalent harvest would be is relative to at what wattage, volume and time. Relative to 1/4 volume, 1/4 wattage would be supposed, bringing 15gr/75watts up to a .2gr/watt estimate. Taking this number up by 50% to project to a 12th week harvest would suggest a .3gr/watt projection. But of course for comparison against the usual gr/watt 8 week number used would indicate the .2gr/watt number.

These number still look very low, but being that I expect an 8th week equivalent estimate for a 12 week Haze to be arround .7gr/watt for Metal Halides and HPS lighting, arround .3 to .4 for floros, a number arround .5gr/watt would be expected for a 50/50 MH + floro mix.

And of course, 8 weeks of sampling about .5 gram a day on average (an ounce from these 2 plants), brings the Harvest to Date total to (15+28 = 43gr) 43 grams. So a total harvest rather than end harvest w/o dailys, would be about 43gr/75watts = .5 to .6 gr/watt, which is about on par for straight Metal Halide (.7gr/watt) with Haze, and this would be right on for MH+floro 50/50 mixes at about .5gr/watt.

In other words, at about .5gr/watt at week 8 for Haze under a Metal Halide + Wide Spectrum Floros mix these plants are producing as expected, with a total harvest projected at .7 to .8 grams/watt at week 12 be about right for MH or HPS and actually .2 to .3 grams per watt better than might be expected for a 50/50 MH+W/S Floro wattage mix. The .2 to .3 gram/watts improvement over what a combined separate MH and W/S floro harvest would be, should be attributed to a synergistic enhancement of the MH spectrum with the W/S floros. It's less than you would get with MH alone on a gr/watt basis, but hopefull with a lower flowering or seed ripening time along with better resin quality and quantity per gram, it for some would be worth it.

[salmayo]

I'll try and post another update as soon as some seeds start appearing riper and/or taking any more samples.I'll have to make an effort to state relative dates more clearly.

This first seed sample, from the controlled pollenation of a pair of Haze female clones with Low Ryder pollen, was taken 4 weeks after pollenating the females during week 8 of flowering, which is also week 12 of flowering. I'd try to state these relative lengths of time more clearly in the future, since week 12 of flower and week 12 after pollentation are 2 very different things.

I don't have a dry weight on this sample yet, since the buds are still very fresh, but I'll try and post that info when I have it.

At week 4, 30% of the seeds appear fully ripe with an nice Grey/Olive Green color, 60% appear an immature pale tan/green, and I would cal 10% underdeveloped or unusable due to flaws/damage. Mature seeds size is average for most indoor strains I've bred.

I've done some checking on seed production, and the range appears to be 2 to 6 weeks for maturation of seeds after pollenation. With 2 weeks being the standard for most commercially bred indoor strains and 6 weeks being a much less observed duration seen on "Outdoors Only" strains such as late maturing Sativas such as The Haze. The best seeds I produced with the last Haze cross I did (Haze X Haze) were at week 5 compared to weeks 2 through 5.

The controlled pollenation was done with the tip of a small paint brush, followed by a rinse spray 24 hours later, and the results appear very good for pollen control and only the 10% of the buds originally pollenated appear to have set seeds, with the remaining buds apparrently seedless, but I'll have to confirm this after my second seed search when this sample is dry.

I also had 2 Haze plants at week 16 of flower when the pollenation was done, and they appear to be seedless. At week 20, they are being harvested and seed checked, but they appear seedless so far and were at the final leafless whip stage of flower.

[salmayo]

I found a quote in one of Ed Rosenthals growing guides that states, Gene Crossover between paired Chromosomes occurs 2% of the time. I think this is an oversimplification since it occurs more and more over time with cellular replications, but main concept is incorparated into this Reciprocal Back Cross method, which attempts to transfer largely intact (~98% ?) chromosomes as mostly static gene sets, in order to transfer matched gene sets with minimal gene recombinations in the set caused by Gene Crossovers.

Since cellular replication over time increases these (here) undesirable crossovers between chromosomes, the F1 males used to make pollenations (F1 Low Haze male x P2 Haze female, resulting in B1 female in the chart above) will be used as young as possible to limit replications and resultant crossovers.

Also, as a source F1 source of pollen for the second F1 Low Haze pollenator (another young F1 Low Haze male from a second sprouting X B1 female, resulting in I1 generation in the chart above), I plan on using a second young male, as opposed to continuing to use the first F1 male again, but if enough pollen can be collected and stored (frozen) for the second F1 pollenation, that could be used as well.

These decisions are based on the presumption that stored seeds and stored pollen do not suffer from Gene Crossovers, since stored seeds and pollen are not replicating their cells and chromosomes.

By aiming to limit Gene Crossovers on targetted chromosome containing gene sets, the goal of transporting intact chromosomal gene sets become most likely. And by targetting easily trackable Major Traits (like male/female gender) linked to chromosome carrying less easily predicatble traits (resin profile), transfering the less easily predictable traits, should become more predictable. Here the assumed potency/gender gene sets linked to the gender chromosome is being targeted to transfer the resin profile of Haze (intact) into the final gene line.

If the Autoflowering Traits are also gender chromosome linked this could make Autoflowering transfer and Haze resin profile, mutually exclusive. (Hope Not.)

[Dhevil]

I don't have the Rosenthal book to look at, but I'm pretty sure that he's referring to crossover during meiosis (reproduction, seedmaking) rather than vegetative growth. Crossover during mitosis shouldn't even be an issue, as an IBL, or otherwise "stabilized" strain would be homogeneous enough that the crossed over chromosomes would be essentially identical, anyways. Besides, mitotic recombination is even more rare than the same meiotic process.

Besides, this mitotic crossover is how those fancy so-called "elite" or "clone only" samples are made. It's a way to produce novel phenotype. To even assume you could control mitotic crossover, you would stillbe at the ultimate mercy of retrotransposable elements, which are even more disruptive than what you appear to be worried about.

Cannabinoid content and profile are codominant, that the offspring will be an "average" of both the parents, at least in the published papers and reproducible experiments.

While sex is indeed determined genetically, expression of sex genes is not. In this aspect, using selfed pollen would even be safer, in terms of guarding your genetic content, as the "male" chromosome passed by cannabis is actually larger than the female one. It is also one most affected by transposable elements--- selfing could be considered a form of housecleaning here.

Autoflowering is certainly not dependent on sex, as crosses have been made using males and females as starts in crosses to get successful results in AF hybrids.

[salmayo]

I don't have the Rosenthal book to look at, but I'm pretty sure that he's referring to crossover during meiosis (reproduction, seedmaking) rather than vegetative growth. Crossover during mitosis shouldn't even be an issue, as an IBL, or otherwise "stabilized" strain would be homogeneous enough that the crossed over chromosomes would be essentially identical, anyways. Besides, mitotic recombination is even more rare than the same meiotic process.

Besides, this mitotic crossover is how those fancy so-called "elite" or "clone only" samples are made. It's a way to produce novel phenotype. To even assume you could control mitotic crossover, you would stillbe at the ultimate mercy of retrotransposable elements, which are even more disruptive than what you appear to be worried about.

Cannabinoid content and profile are codominant, that the offspring will be an "average" of both the parents, at least in the published papers and reproducible experiments.

While sex is indeed determined genetically, expression of sex genes is not. In this aspect, using selfed pollen would even be safer, in terms of guarding your genetic content, as the "male" chromosome passed by cannabis is actually larger than the female one. It is also one most affected by transposable elements--- selfing could be considered a form of housecleaning here.

Autoflowering is certainly not dependent on sex, as crosses have been made using males and females as starts in crosses to get successful results in AF hybrids.

I wouldn't say I'm worried about gene crossover as much as testing the idea, that by breeding method design, chromosomes can be used to predictably produce seeds with targetted traits AFTER multiple crosses, using the breeding design criteria of chromosome transport of targetted genes and gene sets as a mechanism.

I assume that gene crossovers would be taking place during cell reproduction, and that with each division of the cell an additional probability of gene crossovers takes place. So that say for example with this 2% figure, with an F1 hybrid LR X Haze seed, the first cell division after fertilization would result in a cells with 98% of there original structure, and then after the next division it would be 96% (.98 x .98, or .98^2) and so on as a limit type function approaching 50% ulitimately over time (~divisions).

Even with what seems like a low percentage like 2%, assuming one divison per day (I'm sure Cannabis can do this more times a day than any other plant), that after a month it's go from 100% separate chromosomes to (100%, 98%, 96%...) to .98^30 = 55%. In other words after the first month from germination both the chromosomes in a pair could be completely mixed.

Personally I think with a number like "2% of the time", it would be more likely to mean 2% per generation breeding/pollenating/seeding at about 2 months. Because if gene crossover were as rampant 50% per month, the likelyhood of mutation would also have to be as comparatively high as to make any semblance of genetic stability so low as to make living cells themselve impossible and all life of Earth wouldn't last a day let alone have evolved in the first place. Mendels Pea Pod 2 4 2 ratios for dominance indicate a 2% crossover per generation to the most likely version rather than 2% per day, and this is what suggests to me this threads breeding design criteria is not only likely, but probably absolute.

In order to use easily identifiable and trackable targettable chromosomes such as gender, as means of predictably putting the desired gene sets into plants by breeding method design, I would want gene crossover to be 0%, or as low as possible.

So letting my self enjoy a math nerds fantasy of 2% crossover per generation, genetic predictability for this threads Reciprocal Back Cross method would be as follows for the above graphic of the crosses by generation if they were to be used to make seeds within say 2 months: (ROUGHLY)
P2 : 100%
F1 : 100%
B1 : 98%
I1 : 96%

After the I1 generation, inbreeding would not be removing any genes form the line through gene crossover, so the method would pretty much have a 96% success rate.

I should be so lucky. :o

[salmayo]

After the I1 generation, inbreeding would not be removing any genes form the line through gene crossover, so the method would pretty much have a 96% success rate.
It wouldn't be removing genes compared to chromosome elimination, by and large that is.

[salmayo]

Harvesting the rest of the formerly seeded 2 plants yeilded no seeds after drying.

This is a good indication of the success of the damp paint brush tip method of pollenation isolated targetted buds without seeding the hole crop. A good spraying 2 days after pollenation helped I'm sure also.

Also, harvesting and searching for seeds at this later stage of bud developement proved tedious, since even though there were no seeds to be found, the "False" seed pods had swollen, making it harder to examine them for seeds amongs all the swollen calyxes.

Harvesting the first seeded buds and searching them for seeds was much easier since the calyxes that weren't seeded hadn't swollen yet, making the seeded pods stand out much more.

This is something I will consider in trying to synchronize the flowering of the mothers with there pollenation time (male flowering) from here on out. The earlier the better once the buds have set. I'd say pollenate Indicas at week 3 of flower and a late Sativa such as this Haze at about week 5 of flower.

[Kalidi]

if it was easy everybody would be doing it. that saying came to my mind after I read your post of no seeds, Sal. LOL
Good luck.

[salmayo]

I suffer from the presumption that, when posting, people will have read the thread and understand what I type in context to the total.

In the last post I made I the error of not restating that the prior first half of harvesting buds from these plant yeilded NO ADDITIONAL SEEDS, after the harvest of seeds, which came only from the intentionally pollenated buds and none from the others using the damp paint brush and spray the following 2 days later method I used.

I have seeds and put them in water last night, and if they germinate they will be the F1 generation as indicated in the graphic breeding chart previously posted in this thread.

Thanks for the kind words Kalidi, I'll need them if these seeds don't germinate, which would terminate the project, just as getting no seeds would have. Thanks again. :)

[DoobieDuck]

salmayo..nice thread but I have a question? Your comment "damp paint brush "...I have always used a dry brush and spray afterwards. Is there something I'm missing? Thanks DD

[salmayo]

salmayo..nice thread but I have a question? Your comment "damp paint brush "...I have always used a dry brush and spray afterwards. Is there something I'm missing? Thanks DD

Given that the "damp paint brush" method I employed here resulted in what appears to be TOTAL isolation of the pollenated hairs, it appears to more work per seeds than what I assume would be the results of similar efforts if the brush were not damp.

I assumed there would be secondary contamination of other hairs and resultant additional seeds. This was most definitely not the case, and I found myself dissappointed that I hadn't produced more seeds (more on that in the next post). The "damp paint brush" method may additionally kill some,or perhaps even most, of the pollen through the action of the water.

If you wanted absolute isolation of the pollenated hairs and were willing to exert the additional effort per seed produce, then the "damp paint brush" method would seem to be worth it.

I'm planning on just doing an airborn pollenation of the next 2 steps of this breeding plan, since at the B1 and I1 stages I want to have a nice large number of seeds for sprouting and what are already mounting seed requests from friends.

Thanks for the question. ;)

[salmayo]

As I posted earlier on January 2nd, 2008
At week 4, 30% of the seeds appear fully ripe with an nice Grey/Olive Green color, 60% appear an immature pale tan/green, and I would cal 10% underdeveloped or unusable due to flaws/damage. Mature seeds size is average for most indoor strains I've bred.

I've done some checking on seed production, and the range appears to be 2 to 6 weeks for maturation of seeds after pollenation. With 2 weeks being the standard for most commercially bred indoor strains and 6 weeks being a much less observed duration seen on "Outdoors Only" strains such as late maturing Sativas such as The Haze. The best seeds I produced with the last Haze cross I did (Haze X Haze) were at week 5 compared to weeks 2 through 5.

The controlled pollenation was done with the tip of a small paint brush, followed by a rinse spray 24 hours later, and the results appear very good for pollen control and only the 10% of the buds originally pollenated appear to have set seeds, with the remaining buds apparrently seedless, but I'll have to confirm this after my second seed search when this sample is dry.

I also had 2 Haze plants at week 16 of flower when the pollenation was done, and they appear to be seedless. At week 20, they are being harvested and seed checked, but they appear seedless so far and were at the final leafless whip stage of flower.
There were no seeds on this week 20 female. Sadly the "damp paint brush method" seems to work all to well.

[salmayo]

As I posted on the January 16th, 2008, I've germinated the seeds produce for the F1 generation male sellection for Backcrossing with their Haze P2 mother. I transplanted most of these into 5"x5" RockWool cubes last night, since some were showing roots out the sides of their 1.5"x1.5" sprouting cubes.

The first 2 sprouts that popped were rather dissappointing in appearance, they were pale, like their immature looking seeds, and seemed somewhat sickly with one showing distorted leaves as if it had been mechanically injured, but I observed and killed a thrip living off of it and now this sprout is showing showing signs of healthy grow, although it has been held back a bit. The other sprout is still showing little if any signs of grow and I would elliminate it, if not for one thing, it's pale green stem and skinny nature remind me of the males from the P2 Low Ryder generation that fatherred it.

The rest of the sprouts have come up over the last 2 weeks with an average of one sprouting every other day. Their appears to be no correlation between earlier germination and the appearance of seed maturity. I was impressed with the 70% germination rate of these seeds and had figured at most 80% could be viable to begin with, since 20% of the seeds looked flawed or too immature to sprout.

20% of the sprouts have pale green stems, which was a trait that the Low Ryder males of the P2 father generation seemed to have, while the female showed purple stems and accents on their nodes later.

70% of the sprouts have medium to dark purple stems, and the third sprout is showing purple pigmentation on the under side of the first set of single bladed true leaves, with the upper surface of the leaves showing normal green color still at this point, and was designated F1 seedling #1 for F1 male sellection, due to this trait.

Four of the sprouts have shown purple on their stems and are vigorous enough to have been designated numbers 1 through 4, ranked #1 preferred best down to #4 the least desired of the purple group for further evaluation for preferred male sellection for a F1 pollen source for backcrossing with their Haze mother for the production of seeds for the B1 generation.

I've quite taken with the pigmentation on this #1 plant, since it is both highly ornimental and if this trait continues to show pigmentation mainly on the undersides of the leaves, while leaving the upper surface mainly an unaffected green which should not reduce photosynthesis through sheilding/filtering.

I have desided that if this #1 under leaf purple pigmented plant turns out to be male as I am how hoping, and none of the B1 generation of seeds produces a similar male, that I will either store pollen from this male for use on the B1 generation to produce the I1 seeds. If this is the case and the pollen does not remain viable throught storage, I would under those circumstance, use fresh pollen from the male if it still lived to produce the seeds for sprouting the I1 generation, since this should predictably only risk, roughly, an additional 2% gene crossover on the chromosomes as discussed earlier in this thread in posts made on the 2nd through the 7th of January in this thread.

If I do go this route, I will post a new breeding chart to reflect this change in male pollen sources, but the Reciprocal Back Cross control of the tranfer of the targetted female Haze gender chromosome will remain unchanged in method, design and intent.

I plan on sprouting 40 or more seeds from the B1 generation of seeds, in order to take advantage of the F2 type 2 4 2 ratio chromosomes recombinations for better sellection which believe is most critical at a F2 type variable trait population. With an P2xF1 type Backcross in the B1 generation of seeds, the ratios would be 1 to 1 per chromosome traits, with roughly half being EVEN (homogeneous) Haze X Haze chromosome pair recombinations and the other half roughly being ODD (heterogeneous) Haze X Low Ryder chromosome pair recombinations.

With sellective pressure to choose only ODD type traits in the B1 generation, a more common F2 type 2 4 2 chromosome trait recombination population would be produced in the resultant I1 generation, allowing for better sellection/elimination of chromosome traits, especially for recessive 1 in four type traits. I1 and F2 are basically the same thing when starting with a F1 x F1 cross. This may sound like the wrong direction to go stabilizing or IBLing a genetic line, but sellecting for traits in an F2 type variable generation is the most powerful tool breeders have isolating desirable recombinations of traits for further isolation through inbreeding, with it maximized variability of recombination traits within an F2 type population of plants.

I'm really excited by the appearance of this #1 sprout's Under the Leaf Purple Pigment trait, and hope to see more of this trait in further generations of sprouts, and I'm even hoping to see more signs of it in this batch of sprouts now that I'm looking for it, in case this plant turns out female. (I know this is a childish preoccupation with a "pretty" plant, but that's one of the joy's of breeding.)

Let's hope this #1 plant turns out to be my #1 Male. (Even I deserve a break now and then! :p )

I guess we'll see arround the end of Febuary, or at least in March.

I just put 3 Haze mothers into flower under a 11L/13D, so they should be producing plenty of fresh white hairs for pollenation at the end of Febuary and the early half of March, and hopefully the resultant B1 seeds will be ready for sprouting in April. After that, hopefully the crosses will start moving faster with the earlier maturity I hoping for in the I1 and later generations of plants.

I'd like to thank my Doctor for increasing my plant limit to 48 on my recommendation, which will become invaluable when sprouting the next generation of seeds and all those that fallow. :D

[salmayo]

I had another sprout pop up last night.

And, while transplanting the last of the other sprouts, I noticed that one of the younger one had what appears to be early signs of the Under the Leaf Purple Pigment trait on it's first 2 true leaves, as mentioned in the last post for plant #1. This sprout, designated #5, looks yellower than the others, but may have some damage to the primitive Seed Leaves.

By classifying these F1 plants according to stem and leaf color of green or purple, by using PP for Purple stems and leaves, using PG for Purple stems and Green leaves, and using GG for Green stems and leaves, we get a nice 1 2 1 Dominant Recessive Type Distribution:

2 PP
4 PG
2 GG

This perhaps indicates an intermediate or dominant PG (Purple stems and Green leaves) trait that shows Purple on the stems, while also indicating a Recessive trait that shows Under the Leaf Purple Pigment that perhaps relies on the Purple stem trait somewhat. It's reckless to draw such conclusions from such small sample populations, but perhaps I can find a copy of Marijuana Botany and see if it has anything on the topic.

I've been pondering the possibility that this Under the Leaf Purple Pigment trait may have adverse effects on yeild due to shielding/shading photosynthesis in lower leaves, and that it may contribute to the classice conical or X-mass tree morghology. I'll try and find some info the effects of purple leaf pigments on yeild, before making any final decissions on male sellection.

But, if the #1 and #5 Under the Leaf Purple Pigment plants provide me with both a male and a female, making a cross of these two plants sounds like a fun diversion. The female would have female gender chromosomes from both the Haze and the Low Ryder strains, but that would only result having to sellect a female from half of the female offspring having both female gender chromosomes from the Haze strain, and these could then be BackCrossed with the same #1 or #5 male plant to start an IBL line of Under the Leaf Purple Pigment plant for further evaluation.

An attractive option like that could be just the thing to satisfy my childish pretty plant fetish, so I could once again return my original project attentions to male sellection based on vigor and physical stature (i.e. short stocky productive plants that are well branched with wide webbed dark green leaves, or to say the usual indoor characteristics).

If you think I'm bad now, wait until you see me when I'm evaluating some real choices in an F2 type population, not to mention while trying to sample and compare 5 different sample of bud for qualitative properties like potency and flavor/aroma! :o

("Missed It By THAT Much!", GET SMART, coming to a theatre near you soon)

[salmayo]

The 3rd sprout (3rd oldest/most mature) is now showing this Under the Leaf Purple Pigment trait, while the first/oldest (most developed) plant still has green under the leaves, but it does have some purple on the leaf stem and beginning of the leaf rib, and all the plants appear to be developing purple on the stems at least.

Even another sprout/seedling is showing this coloration between the ribs of the under side of it's leaves.

At this point, 1/2 the sprouts/seedlings are showing this trait and I wouldn't be surprised if they all indicate this trait to some extent with age. So it may not even be possible to avoid this trait in the next (B1) generation of plants, if all the males in this (F1) generation display this Under the Leaf Purple Pigment trait.

The Low Haze father of these seedlings had no signs of purple coloration and it could very well be a recessive trait, but it occurs to me that this might be some form of Hybrid Vigor type F1 combination of the Indica/Ruderalis genetics of the Low Ryder father, combined with the mostly Sativa genetics of the Haze mother. The Haze mother does have purple coloration arround the nodes and her stems darken to Deep/Dark Purple (Neo Black) as they get older and stiffer.

If this is some kind of recessive trait of the Low Ryder that appears in all, or at least the male used, of these F1 plants, it should be present in 1/2 of the B1 generation of plants after Backcrossing with their Haze mother.

I haven't been able to find any breeding information on the Haze used here, other than that it's a Mostly Sativa, if not fairly Pure Sativa, strain.

On the other hand, I have found some information on the original crosses used to create the Low Ryder line, before it was Inbred for earlier and earlier maturity to create this unique IBL strain. Presuming I got the genders right, the original female in the IBL cross was a Williams Wonder female IBL resulting from an Indica female X Ruderalis male cross, and the original male in the IBL cross was the result of a Northern Lights #2 female X Ruderalis male. So I guess based on original parentage of the IBL, Low Ryder would be called a Mostly Ruderalis (a little more than 1/2), Some Indica (a little less than 1/2) and Slightly Sativa strain, if you consider NL#5 to be a Mostly Indica, Indica Sativa Hybrid IBL. (I.E. Low Ryder is a Mostly Ruberalis, slightly Sativa, Ruderalis-Indica-Sativa Hybrid IBL.)

Which I guess by the same method would suggest that the IBL depicted in the above breeding chart would be classified as a Mostly Sativa, Some Ruderalis and Slightly Indica. (I.E. This Low Haze IBL would be a Mostly Sativa, Slightly Indica, Sativa-Ruderalis-Indica Hybrid IBL.)

(Yeh, that's a headache sized one. I can stop typing now... ) :eek: :p

[salmayo]

This pigmentation characteristic has faded back to green on the second and third sets of leaves.

I wonder if it was a sign of a potassium deficiency or perhaps a hormonal relationship to the seed leaves.

I'll keep observing the plants for this again, but as they start to grow faster, purple pigmentation seems to be limilted to the stems and the veins at the base of the leaves.

[salmayo]

This is my best estimate of the parentage of the IBL's used in this breeding program, and having made a decision to use the best F1 male for both the B1 and I1 crosses, this revision is also included in this new chart.

It's rather large, I hope this doesn't make it too difficult to read.

The P2 cross nearest the bottom of the chart represents the beginning of the Low Haze breeding project.

[salmayo]

And, while transplanting the last of the other sprouts, I noticed that one of the younger one had what appears to be early signs of the Under the Leaf Purple Pigment trait on it's first 2 true leaves, as mentioned in the last post for plant #1. This sprout, designated #5, looks yellower than the others, but may have some damage to the primitive Seed Leaves.It's a Boy!

As it turns out this #5 plant had the best traits of early male indication, most vigorous growth, most vigorous branching, thickest stems, shortest internodes, and it appears to be forming a dense rosette of male flowers, with little indication of typical male stretching, which should indicate nice thick Cola structure genetics to pass on.

This plant was better in the above traits than the other two most vigorous males the #1 and #4 plants, even though the #1 was the 2nd to germinate and the #4 was the 3rd to germinate compared to the #5 which was the 4th to germinate making it the youngest of the three. All three had indications of the Under Leaf Purple Pigment commented on earlier. The #1 and #4 plants have been eliminated and a 4th less vigorous male plant seems about to conclusively indicate, and will then be elimiated as well, leaving the one #5 male F1 plant.

The number #5 plant indicated male and is a week into flower set under a 14.5/9.5 light cycle toggled on/off in 30 minute cycles during the ON hours, which both stresses the plants and induces more stem elongation than continuous 14.5 hour on and 9.5 off cycles. The light schedule has been increased to 15.5/8.5 again with the 15.5 hour cycle being toggled on/off in 30 minute intervals. An effort will be made to both freeze pollen from this male for the next (B1) Backcross, and also an effort will be made to reveg and clone this #5 male for both as a pollen backup source and as a comparison plant to the B1 seed males.

Also a week ago, the 3 best assumed females were placed in the main flowering area under a 13/11 cycle to induce flowering to take advantage of the Haze pollenation in the same chamber for the two Haze phenos, the first P2 female being used in the cross to make this #5 male is named Lilith (Thicker stems, more upright. later maturing, leafier buds) and the other P2 female named Cleopatra (after Morticia Adams carnivorous pet African Strangler vine, due to her horizontal growth habit). Of these 3 F1 females two are nearly as large as the #5 male and one is smaller/younger, but with more nodes and more vigorous branching. If any of these assumed females that turns male will be eliminated. I hope to keep two of these females for making F2 seed, preferrable one of the larger females and the one smaller female plant with the more compact/branched habit. Provided at least one of these three plants indicates female, an additional younger as yet unindicated plant believed to be female will also be eliminated, leaving the #5 male and 1 or 2 females for making F2 seeds (as a side gene line to this threads main experimental line.

It was suggested that the project use Cleopatra instead of backcrossing with the original Haze female, Lilith, as originally planned (to increase genetic diversity of the line), and these seeds will produced in this flowering areas pollenation, but other than a germination and growth comparison of these seeds, the original B1 seed line will be used as planned. It is possible that Cleopatra's best female could be by chance genetically superior to Liliths by statistical chance, but the Lilith line will be evaluated at the B1 level in order to evaluate the Reciprocal Back Cross method as is the whole point of the thread. Interestingly, the same Haze Haze double female gender chromosome recombination will be demonstrated in the seeds of Cleopatra as well and would eqaully confirm or disprove the assumption that the THC/resin potency/profile is Gender Chromosome related.

The later Lilith female was sellected over the earlier Cleopatra female for this breeding line, due to the yellowing leaf trait of Cleopatra. Although, some might not consider it such a bad thing to have a more yellowing prone plant at final flush/harvest time. And since this #5 male F1 Plant being used as the pollen source indicated a yellowed coloration from seed to sprout stage, it could produce a recessive yellowing line from the Cleopatra cross.

I believe this initial yellow coloration of the #5 male was due to seed stress and if the trait does not prove consistent in Cleopatra's seeds this should confirm this belief, especially if 100% or close to it for Cleopatra's seeds don't have leaf yellowing.

As soon as this #5 F1 male produces enough pollen, as half harvest of the Haze females will be taken, and then the flowering area pollenated with #5 F1 pollen. Since the trichome production and potency at this point is quite good (for Haze), and this will provide both a seedless and then a seeded harvest once the seeds have ripenned.

[salmayo]

Unlike most of my plants, two clones taken of this #5 male sufferred yellowing and loss of the bottom fan leaves.

The #5 male has finally let loose most of it's pollen and will be cut this weekend.

With most of the seed pods of the plants swelling nicely, sample seeds for test germination will be taken in 2 weeks and with successful germination result, both the main (Lilith) and the secondary (Ceopatra) seedmothers will be harvested.

Due to the yellowing habit of the #5 males seedling stage and this cloning yellowing characteristic, a second pollenation with a preserved #6 male will be done before sellecting the #5 or #6 males seeds to sprout for continued work on this line. The #5's seeds may be sellected for germination sooner if the #6 males clones display yellowing and lose of the lower leaves similar to the #5's clones, but most likely the #6's seeds will be the chosen line to continue with.

A simultanious #6 male pollenation could have been done, but the yellowing of the #5 in cloning hadn't been considered, since yellowing in the #5 sprout was considerred stress related rather than genetic (a slight gamble that resulted in a excellent lesson in playing it safe with such situations).

The #6 male sprout was one of the few that did not display purpling under the leaves, which was later attributed to a possible nutrient deficiency of Potassium. The #6 male sprout did have purple stems though and the adult is a nice stocky specimen with purple tinting on the stems.

With removal of the #5 male from the flowering area, attentive spraying of the females to remove residual pollen, fresh unpollenated female seedmothers can be added to start them flowering, and in 2 weeks when the ripe seedmothers are removed the #6 male can be added to start the #6 lines pollentation. In mean time, cuttings of the #6 male will be rooted to test for yellowing.

If the clones of the #6 male do yellow and loose the lower fan leaves, the #5 males seeds will be germinated and the work on this line continued, instead of the #6 (for the sake of time).

[salmayo]

A friend was helping me clean out my pollen infested flowering area, and asked me why I risked using a male with a possible yellowing habit, and there are 2 answers:

In spite of the fact that the yellowing trait of about half of the Neville's Haze plants I've grown, which makes them fert sensitive and harder to reveg and clone, if not light starved, the yellowing trait does represent 2 possible reasons to study it.

1. Since one of my Haze mothers, Cleopatra, has a yellowing habit, crossing a yellowing habit male with her and another non-yellowing Haze plant, Lilith, allows for comparing the offspring to see if the trait is dominant or recessive. I think the trait is somewhat dominant, since I believe it is a gene that PROVIDES extra Equatorial Sativa Pigments that tend to make those plants light hungry and prone to yellowing and fert sensitivity related to the light filtering or additional genetic factors.

2. Yellowing a leaf drop are undesirable under most of the conditions used to grow Indoor Cannabis, save one: Flushing. Plants that display this light/fert sensitivity are MORE sensitive to flushing and enhance light cycle/sprectrum ripenning. This means the plants will loose more color (chlorophyl) and drop fan leaves faster than other plants when you flush them and/or lower the light cycle/spectrum. By light "cycle/spectrum" I mean going to a 10L/14D (Light/Dark) hour light cycle and/or going to a spectrum that has relatively less Blue and more Far Red.

Something else that seems to be a trend in the yellowing habit Neville's Haze mothers I'm using is that they tend to flower/ripen faster than their non-yellowing sisters, but also seem to produce less in the same lighting environment, which are probably BOTH due to the light filterring of an additional pigment present in these plants resulting in less light for photosynthesis and a high Far Red to Red ratio in the filterred light spectrum they recieve.

I'm also stocking and rebuilding my recently stolen/destroyed Seed Bank, and having any extra stock of seeds to play with is always welcome, and even thou I enjoy growing this Cleopatra pheno, I will probably cut this plant due to difficulty in cloning and the fact than I now will have plenty of both inbreed Haze and hybrid Low Haze seeds from her.

[salmayo]

I checked the both the Lilith and Cleopatra seed mother plants last night for seeding and they look well pollenated and setting seed, but only a few look anywhere near ripe.

I plan on taking the seed B1 level (see chart) harvest arround the 15th.

If the clones of the #6 male do not yellow or show leaf drop sensitivity another pollenation of the Lilith seed mother will start with on the 15th or sooner, otherwise the #5 line of seeds from the Lilith seed mother will be sprouted for the second backcross using the #6 male stock.

Now that I have seeded both the Lilith and Cleopatra Neville's Haze mothers with the #5 males pollen and tested its clones for performance, barring difficulty clone the #6 male, the #5 yellowing male will be disgarded in favor of keeping the #6 male for further use.

Cuttings for the #6 male were taken last night an are being rooted to test for yellowing and leaf drop habits, and I predict that it will clone easily and that the #5 male will be disgarded by the 15th. If this is done an modified geneology chart will be posted to reflect this slight (and final) change in the breeding plan.

[salmayo]

Well since last time, all but the Lilith female had been woefully eliminated, but one last controlled fertilization of the Lilith female yeilded about 40 seeds arround 32 of which should sprout.

These seeds are the B1 generation Backcross of the Low Haze F1 Hybrid (Nevilles's Haze x Low Ryder) male with it's aunt (not mother, her sister plant) Neville's Haze plant. This gives these seeds a Homozygus Lilith mother with evenly matched Haze Sativa chromosomes (HH) and a Heterozygus Low Haze F1 Hybrid Father with 50/50 Haze/LR chromosomes (LH), resulting in 50/50 HH & LH chromosome combinations in the 10 chromosome pairs of these B1 seeds.

Except for the gender choromsomes, approximately half the B1 seed's chromosomes have Haze x Haze traits and the other half are LH combinations. So half the plants will be shorter. Half the plants will be earlier. Half will be darker green. Half will have wider leaves... ...ect. But in combinations, so if we want a shorter, earlier, darker green, wider leaved plant then we will be looking for plants with a combination of 4 traits making is likely to be a fraction of the population equal to (1/2)^4 of the seed population, or 1/16 of the population.

So if we germinate 32 seeds and half are male, then of the 16 predicted females from these seeds, 1 would (on average) have all four desired (more indoor) traits shorter height, earlier flowering, darker and wider leaves.

Although the chances of getting 1 desirable 4 trait female plant (we want a male to) in a batch of 32 sprouts is actually closer to 50/50, we are going to try and sprout 32 as a nice workable (limited to 48 plants) round seedling population number. We'll probably go into flower with an even 12 plants after thinning out he taller/slimmer ones, and end up with about 6 of the stockier darker green wider leaved females competing for earliest flowering at 12/12.

And, of course, since I'm breeding male lines, sellecting the best male from the batch will also be a priority. Once sellected the plan is to breed such a male with one (or more) of it's early sisters and it's P2 Neville's Haze Lilith aunt, the result could be a stable early to autoflowering Low Haze line for breeding in potency and early maturity with other lines (Such as a Neville's Haze x Low Haze Backcrossing, for an earlier Haze High).

As soon as the hydro's up and running, the seeds will be sprouted directly in RockWool cubes in their net baskets in their first stop on the hydro bucket harvest trail. The nutrient solution will start out at a concervative 2.5-2.5-2.5 (N-P-K) and begin being raised once the second set of leaves begins to form.

Plants that yellow in vegging will be graded down, but plants that can BE MADE to yellow in flowering will be graded up during plant comparisons and evaluations.

I'll post another update as soon as we get a fairly firm number on the seedling count.

Till then, take care. :)

[AlanMiddlemiss]

Keep up the good work. Very interesting read. I appreciate the detail.

Thanks