plants "brittle"

[SpiritFilled]

I'm in first week of flipped and am starting to pull the males as they show. What I'm noticing is a very - what i can only describe as "brittle" quality to the plants. As I'm taking the males out, they 'break' really easily. The stalks and stems just seem to crack. I'm growing a few g13/BH,Skunkberry and Northernberry; which these two in the past have been very durable easy-2-grow plants. They are stretching a bit more than usual, but are between 22-30 inches, 2k light, ok temps.
I got very aggressive in pruning lower branches. Maybe I cut too many too soon? Also thought i'd add a lot of ph "down" to water last time to get the soil down from 6.8 to lower, and maybe that screwed things up.

Anybody experience this b4?

[Richi420]

a few things come to mind do you have any picture as it would help tons.

[SpiritFilled]

i already tossed the broken stuff, but will try to get some pics

[SpiritFilled]

By that I mean if I lean against some leaves while I'm trying to get at other plants, the tops tend to react as if they were stressed mightily, when all I did was brush against them; this would sometimes leave a leaf branch hanging to where I could just tug on it and it would snap off. Ive never had that b4.

I added water at a super red lower-than-4.0 ph in order to try to balance out my soil ph, and i keep thinking the troubles accentuated after that, but cant be sure.

[Radic]

imho
dis is da first sign of a K deficiency
the first 2wks of 12/12 light=dark is called the changeover period
and right now your plants are in the middle of it
K demarnd is high in the changeover period
and is used by the plant to increase stem strength
for big budz you need strong stems
thatz why now is a good time to give some PK
or a high K spray like liquid Kelp
dont spray under full lights
ever
strictly befor they come on
or
after they go off
irey guidance

[DaMagoMan]

Indoor grow?
What kind of lights you have? How much watts per sq ft?

How old are the bulbs?
Just because they still produce light doesn't mean they don't need changing :D

[SpiritFilled]

4 x 8 shed; 1000 watt cooltubes, CO2 cannister; smalll portable a/c;
Coco Coir, foxfarms Ocean soil, Liquid Karma, Botanicare Pro for Veg, Sweet, Mex Bat Guano, B1 Thrive Alive, CalCax (went to RO water conditioning recently).

Guess I'll look for some sources of K - as in Kelp

[gelu65]

Is it possible that the plants need a more powerful fan on them so they can move more and build up the strength they need. Jerry

[Radic]

K = potassium
Kelp is high in K and a good organic source
Potassium bicarbonate is the same stuff you use to makes cakes rise
but dont use bakein power cause they cut it with corn flower
use a agricultural strength Potassium bicarbonate
get it from the garden shop
i use a product called -->Eco-Carb for a high K hit
google it
spray as directed for a folia spray
seen
gelu is right
move the air around in the room with an ossalating floor fan this wil keep the plants moving like swaying in the breeze
:D
its like airobic exersize for plants

like DaMagoMan said
old 1000w bulbs are no good even tho they still start and seam bright
they ware out befor they blow
check dem with a light meter

irey guidance

[SpiritFilled]

<a href="http://img190.imageshack.us/i/831.mp4/"><img src="http://www.imageshack.us/thumbnail.png"/></a>
or
http://img190.imageshack.us/i/831.mp4/
http://img190.imageshack.us/i/831.mp4/

I just now transplanted and here's the big thing i noticed: I used alot more COIR block than i ever had before and the clump of dirt that comes out of the 3 gall on the way to the 5 gallon in most cases disintegrated. In the past it's held together like the bottom of a cupcake, but here in most cases it was shredded without the dirt congealing around it. Also in the past i had maybe 22-24 inches high at best when flipping. These puppies are over 30 inches, and i think stretching a bit as well.
Got constant fan action on it.
In the movie you can kind of see the ease which it "snaps"

[Rockster]

I don't know why you guys are saying it's potassium deficiency as 'brittleness' isnt a symptom(as far as I'm aware?) but boron deficiency most certainly can cause it.

You are using a lot of stuff.

I can only think you've overdone the nutes and you have a lock out problem,hmm?

Are the fan leaf stems brittle,didn't seem it in the vid?

Have you grown with this feed regime before?

It's not down to air movement,growing without circ fans at all wouldn't produce this problem.

When potting up did you smell the compost by any chance? A musty organic smell is a sign of subsoil fungal problems.

Do you operate a good wet and dry cycle,watering till runoff and not watering again till around 80% of that previously given is used up?

I've watched the vid 3 times and overall the plants look good,a nice mid green,if the lighting isnt fooling me?

You added water at ph4.0 ?

Have you measured your runoff?

Kveshchuns kveshchuns!

[SpiritFilled]

I've used alot of water from my port a/c which was drawn out of the air and collected in a 10 gall bag. I had heard somewhere that it was great stuff, so i measured and found 36 ppm and a great ph. The plants responded well but that might be a slow death somewhere in that water.

[Radic]

yes i checked the vid too
from dat
i really dont see any ting unusual about your brittleness
infact
they look quite healthy and happy to i
is this the same variety as you grew befor????????
indicas have a hollow in the stem
staivas is solid
i think your plants look fine
iery guidance

[SpiritFilled]

I added Cal-Mag for my (newly bought) RO system, as i was told I had to beef up the water with it. I also used it liberally with my port a/c water, and am thinking that might have been the problem.
But I never had a transplant where the root and dirt didnt "clump" together, but disintegrated to where you couldnt even hold the root ball together.

The plants seem to be growing well now. I am curious what kind of bud will develop

[pflover]

But I never had a transplant where the root and dirt didnt "clump" together, but disintegrated to where you couldnt even hold the root ball together.


I've had that happen... any time the root zone conditions are such root grow is inhibited the tend to grow thin and weak and can't hold the soil together effectively.

[SpiritFilled]

Re: Rockster's on the ph 4.0. It was only done once, but in order to try to bring the ph down from 6.8, I added water with enough ph "down" that it was bright red in the tester. Is it wrong to add water that "red" in order to get a better ph balance?
I also, later - thanx to pflover's previous suggestion - added lemon juice

[Diskrete]

I used Lemon juice as a "Ph Down" recently aswell, I noticed my plants started getting really pale and some leaves were dying off, brittle like you described. I will be preparing a pH'd gallon of water to flush them out right now. Luckily I have not transplanted yet and my pots are small. getting ready to move to bigger pots. I know people use Lemon juice pretty often, but perhaps it was the culprit here?

[Radic]

irey Diskrete
yes
i can see the light of your reasoningz
so
if the roots got burnt by the 4ph water
that could stunt the growth of the roots
and lead to--> the roots not filling the pot like you did befor in your previous grows
also ph increases with depth that means the lowest ph is at the bottom of the pot
so most of the dammage would be in the bottom of the pot
acid soils dont have good soil structure
also increasing acidity leads to breaking down the colliods and leaving the dried out soil dusty

now because there is not nuff roots to supply all the existing leaves
she desided to drop a few off and that could be the cause of the brittleness

the sollution would be to follia feed till the roots recover and can take over
IMHO
a K spray is crucial
shock like dat can cause a plant to use up all the available K in 1hr
never spray under full light
this will cause the plant to transpire or sweat
and actually lose more water than the get
strictly
spray before the lights come on
or
after the lights go off
irey guidance

[SpiritFilled]

i'll get on getting some k to spray as soon as i can afford (rent-$-time), but the lemon-juice is definitely NOT the culprit, as i only bot the lemons after seeing the problem. I just yanked 2 more males; one had much better root structure than the other.

[Diskrete]

I think mine may just be locked out, figure giving them a good flush will bring them back.

[Rockster]

Re: Rockster's on the ph 4.0. It was only done once, but in order to try to bring the ph down from 6.8, I added water with enough ph "down" that it was bright red in the tester. Is it wrong to add water that "red" in order to get a better ph balance?
I also, later - thanx to pflover's previous suggestion - added lemon juice


Hmm,yes mate,not best practice.If you've overferted or have a big problem with the ph it's best to flush with clean water and then feed at the correct ph with a mild feed rather than try to compensate for your runoff ph.

I'd also give a shot of trace elements which contain boron as boron deficiency IS indicated for brittle stems.

No disrepect to our friend Radic(ok Radic mate:) ) but I see a K foliar feed as pointless as your compost has plenty of K in it according to what you've given.The main indicator of K deficiency is malformed fruits/leaves at the growing tips and the plants have to be starving to get to that situation.If K is locked out,again a foliar feed won't sort things as you have to stabilise your growing medium as thats where the problem lies.

I may be wrong as I've not researched K deficiency in any depth and in my 30 odd years of growing never experienced it myself but have once had very brittle stems and when I looked for info found boron to be the likely culprit.

To give feed or water once at ph4 is no biggie really.

I'd give 'em a really good flush and continue with half strength nutes for the moment.