Yellow leaves, spots - First grow - White Russian - CFL

[mgjschdl]

I did some googling prior to this, but honestly I can't nail it down. I beleive the issue started after last feeding (4 days ago). This
White Russian is a clone I gotten a month prior. Its transplanted into soil 16 days ago. While it went well it took a few days for yellowing to disappear. About 3 days ago it showed up again. At first it started in middle (I think) and only effected the lower and middle leaves. One is yellow, probably canary yellow, and some dark almost red spoting on edges and end of leaves. Another two are yellowing and one shows these blotches near center of the leaf itself. The rest of plant looks ok but I'm not sure what todo. Fertilizer was used, Its the General Organic grow formula, about 3/4 strenght and I've done folliar spraying to keep moisture level up and some water when topsoil was bone dry. The Water/Fertilizer is 6.3-6.4ph respectively and its on 18/6 cycle. I have not flushed or treated the plant with other chemicals, etc.. If it at all helps its around 5-6" tall now. I use distilled water right now instead of tap water (because I have concern over hard water). I don't (yet) have a ec/pph meter just a ph. Soil is soiless mix with 1/2 perlite as peatmoss. Day cycle is around 76-80F normally with 27-30% moisture and at night 70-73F and 26-28% moisture typically. Airflow has been steady and constant.

I'm not sure what else to write. i hope it was enough for you to help. My thread here is called "rubbermaid white rhino cfl". Yes, I mistakenly identified the plant. It IS white russian.








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[Kind Budz]

thats rust disease., is from being defficient. not a healthy medium is what causes almost every bug or pathogen we get. foliar with Safer`s deffender fungicide.
drop ph to 6 to 6.1. dont be foliar or spraying the surface of the soil...needs to get dry, also the humidity is to low, try for 45 to 55%. room conditions affect the plants uptake and processing of the foods and adds to the deficiency.'
use the defender and get some microbial life int he medium. you will use less food and get more of what you do use into them easier. great stuff for overall good life in the soil. they have their own defences...use them.
always un-chlorinated water. chlorine kills off the microbial life. so does baking soda for those that use it to Ph with

[Chana Masala]

Hi mg,

I would flush with ph 6 to 6.5 (5 gallons should do)... let the soil dry out and then in a few days after it is dryed out (not wilting)and thirsty, I would apply a light nutrient feed with a common 2-part. Remember, you do not need to feed your plant every time you water... and you dont need to water your plant two much. Let the soil dry out. You will notice your plants will grow quicker. Your plant will come back around in a week or so... easy on the nutrients and if you still want to foilar feed just use plain ph water until you get the root nutrient feeding down first...

[EDIT: looking again at your container 5 gallons of plain ph water is to much... use 2 or 3.]

Keep on trucking fellow grower...

Peace,

Chana

[Somatek]

I'd agree with Chan Masala, flush the plant at the next watering and then reduce the fertilizers after that. Either by cutting the strength per feeding or by feeding straight ph'ed water in between fertilizing.

How big is that pot? I'm guessing it's a 4" round one, but it's hard to tell because of the perspective, if that's the case a gallon of water should do. Use either tap water or 10% strength as pure R/O water isn't as effective at flushing out fertilizer salts since there aren't as many in it for the salts to bind to and get washed out.

See you're other thread for a much more long winded rambling explanation of why I think over fertilizing/watering is your problem... ;) :D

[carl]

tds meters are a MUST. the plant looks hungry to me. are you growing under led's or hid's? :)

[Kind Budz]

flushing and lowering food dosnt make sence to me on a defficient plant????

id say the whole thing is cause isnt drying out enough and lowered ph..makes it deficient. i used to be of the same thinking till i got involved with a nute co. and learned a few secrets.

also the bad room conditions are making to hard to process food right.

only reason id say to lower food is your under cfl...less stuff going on from lack of light to process the foods.

[Chana Masala]

flushing and lowering food dosnt make sence to me on a defficient plant????

id say the whole thing is cause isnt drying out enough and lowered ph..makes it deficient. i used to be of the same thinking till i got involved with a nute co. and learned a few secrets.

also the bad room conditions are making to hard to process food right.

only reason id say to lower food is your under cfl...less stuff going on from lack of light to process the foods.

You can not advocate using fancy nutrients when mg is growing under cfl. There is not enough light to translate to growth to justify the nutrient uptake.

It may not make sense to you but for a first time grower, and a med user, getting money to spend on more nutrient is plain silly.

rxb is sending him a ph pen. Once he can get his water accurate mg can then move to the next step, nutrient uptake. In another of mg's threads, I believe mg is over-watering and the foiler feeding is locking nutrient uptake further.

Instead of telling him to go buy more nutrients he should flush, bring the plant out of toxicity and then lightly feed with a standard a,b veg. There should be no issue with the cutt in the future. If you still would like to add another nutrient get an enzyme of average quality (which I believe Kind also stated). You can add to your mix and/also folier feed with it.

Again, CFL's do not translate or process nutrient well so I would pass on your advice regardless of the nutrient company you got your information from. No disrespect Kind, but I think we need to help mg keep the cutt alive first.

Keep up the good work mg and worry about one step at a time and leave the expensive nutrients at the grow shop.

Hey Kind, why dont you send him a few bottles since you have access to it?

Take care,

Chana

[Kind Budz]

im not trying to tell anyone to go buy this or that..i did say it needs to be treated for the disease though. all i did wqas pint a few ways to treat this. hopw am iu supposed to know he cant buy anything..i didnt see that in here.

and when i see people use the food right maybe i would hook up a few to prove this. and no,..im not here to sell anything. i gift . i hate the greedy so im no way about that.
the plant isnt in tox..its deff...not trying to sound like a smart ass but there is alot i see behind the scenes that is being kept form the public. thew reason others cant do it i see is cause i get told this all the time...instead if trying something new.


again...all i did was try and make a couple suggestions..take it not..not my plant. just trying to pass on a few secrets that not all know..and it is a cheeper way. this is what we are trying to do. im on dissability myself and cant afford much...and no.,.i dont get paid by anyone for what i do.

without a ph pen he cant relay do much anyways..i thought it was just the ppm he didnt have, and i also commented on the lack of light to.

[Chana Masala]

im not trying to tell anyone to go buy this or that..i did say it needs to be treated for the disease though. all i did wqas pint a few ways to treat this. hopw am iu supposed to know he cant buy anything..i didnt see that in here.

and when i see people use the food right maybe i would hook up a few to prove this. and no,..im not here to sell anything. i gift . i hate the greedy so im no way about that..

So are you going to send mg the food and share your trade secrets?

Also if there is as you say no way to overfeed your crop and it is a "myth" why do you use a ec metre?


plant isnt in tox..its deff...not trying to sound like a smart ass but there is alot i see behind the scenes that is being kept form the public. thew reason others cant do it i see is cause i get told this all the time...instead if trying something new..

The plant is deficient because it is toxic. Not to sure about the conspiracy theories though, as Canna, Dutch Nutrient and a few others produce nutrient specifically for marijuana consumption.


...all i did was try and make a couple suggestions..take it not..not my plant. just trying to pass on a few secrets that not all know..and it is a cheeper way. this is what we are trying to do. im on dissability myself and cant afford much...and no.,.i dont get paid by anyone for what i do.

You state in another thread that you test for a seed co??? What are you talking about Kinds... you don't get renumeration? Free seeds and/or nutrient...


without a ph pen he cant relay do much anyways..i thought it was just the ppm he didnt have, and i also commented on the lack of light to.

Sorry Kind. I am here to help. mg, you can use liquid ph test kit 20.00 bucks (look for the yellow colour after adding ph down). You can still grow good meds without ph pen. Don't believe the hype mg...

Sorry to side track, but you can not believe everything you read...

Peace mg and kindz

Chana

[Kind Budz]

are your nutes clear...if not how do you see a true colour. and those even in water cant get as close as a .5 reading. not very accurate at all. ya i get they are cheep/.not no 20 buck though. i have a digi for 25 buck and is juts fine.

i get no pay from anyone..ive said it a few times. i get sent things to show if its any good or not and cause i have axcess to having thing scientificly tested. getting gifted allows me to put my own cashg to help others...if they deserve it. not saying he dont. i dont even know him.
how can a plant be toxic and deff at the same time..one is to much and other isnt enough???

ha...exaclty what im sayin...dont believe the hype ....from the salsemen...im not.

look up suberin...

[Somatek]

how can a plant be toxic and deff at the same time..one is to much and other isnt enough???

Because nutrient absorbtion when you're talking about mineral fertilizers isn't completely selective. Notice how they read as magnessium sulfate, that's magnessium and sulfate, so the plant has to absorb both if it wants one. Another reason is because nutrients react to one another, we have A and B parts to solution for instance because nitrogen and phosphorous will bond in high concentrations and precipitate out of solution in an unuseable form. In other threads I've mentioned that it looks like a K deficiency, which is usually the first sign of too many nutrients in the soil because K locks up with other nutrients easily. So, if there's too many nutrients in the soil, K bonds to them and can't be absorbed by the plant, which means the plant doesn't have enough K so it's stomata won't function properly, which means the plant can't regulate it's internal leaf temperature properly, which causes it to rise and start to burn, which is exhibited as the outer edge going yellow/brown and curling up. Which is directly an example of nutrient toxicity leading to a nutrient deficiency being expressed. Like I've said, it's not an unknown process, it's well documented and understood. If you don't understand how a plant absorbs nutrients and uses the different nutrients to grow, I'd highly suggest you do some reading. So far from your responses it doesn't sound like you have a clear understanding of the principles of growing and have been mislead.

I'm still waiting to read these papers though, maybe I have no clue what I'm talking about... It definitely wouldn't be the first :D

[Kind Budz]

ok ive said it about 4 times now...suberin...so i made my pst elsewhere to read then.
this is what i get all the time..told im wrong but others refuse to look at the info or a simple google once told. so i did it to try and clear up the info.
dont believe me then.

only reason there is to many nutes in there is cause there isnt enough liquid used at each feed or water. use enough and at a the right ph all the time it cant drop ph causing the burn or deff.


heres the new thread if you missed it.

http://www.treatingyourself.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=42250

[Somatek]

read and responded, so we'll move it over there from here on out. Thanks for digging that up, now if you could clarify it's relevance.

[Max Toby]

In my opinion, the lady looks like she been hitting the sauce too much (wet too long)
When you are ready to water; how dry is the soil? A real newbie problem is either over-watering or over-feeding (we're just trying to help her out - right?) Sounds like you are not overfeeding, and your PH sounds about right for her. Good air flow is nice too, but not directly on her if possible (occilating fan best). Your temps sound good as well. I'd let her dry out for now. The next time you feed or water, make sure you give her no more than she can drink in 3-4 days (even if it's a half cup at a time) Could take a while as sick plants drink slower. Alternate feed water, feed water, and keep the feed at 3/4 strength as you go to compensate for the CFL's. And most important...don't worry. She'll come back just fine. They barely need us to grow; in fact it's usually cause we screw it up that they have any problems at all. Good luck, and....

Peace
Max:cool:

[iggysplat]

Well there is a lot of good answers here. I did not ready them all. But one issue I see is your Humidity is way to low. Needs to be around 50 percent on average. Get that under control for sure. Flush is also a good idea. If the plant is hungry you will see the first sign at the edge of the leaf as it draws the nitrogen from leaf. The tips will turn yellow and the the leaf will slowly die. This is not what I see in your pic. Flush. Proper PH. reduce your ferts to a 50 to 60 percent. Humidity corrected..BINGO great grow.

Peace and Happy Growing

[420grower]

o.k. I will put a stop to this argument,ph is not really that important if you are an organic guy like me,now I know you hydro guys have to watch ph and temps,but I have been organic way before it was the trend,you all have seen my grows and I am still vegging but will post pics tonight as usual,this thought that we need tons of money to grow this medicine is crazy,I make all my own nutes,and if exspensive nutes were the answer,I doubt I would harvest the weight I do,so stop this fight,and I will challange anyone to try to out size me genus to genus,we all have our favs,no reason to fight,show your stuff,and yes you have a def problem,probably from the soil mix you are using,go to straight coco coir and your grows will change completely,nuff said,Peace all

[Kind Budz]

lol...who`s fighting. i expect some dissagreement as most havent even heard of it but yet tell us its wrong...lol

and ya real organics...like composted stuff or a few others are slower to break down. so easier on the ph.
why does it need to come to a challenge.
most dont even realize almost every nute co out there is using the same dry source. but yet all claim to be better than the other...how if its the same thing in the bottle. ...i say most to...not all.
this was nothing to do with what brands of food or types.


also thats a small pot so a 3 to 4 days to dry that is way to long. id say more like water on monday...then feed wed...water friday..feed sunday.....so on. i do for 1 gallon pots and is about right,...also depends on how much there is for a root mass for our amounts used.

i think iggies got it...or is on right track...deff is burn not tox.

[brainpain]

how and what do you feed
i didnt see
ill look again

[Kind Budz]

how and what do you feed.....who?

[brainpain]

sorry to say the plant looks to be very sick, not at all healthy. 1/8 strength flush is in order. whats the room temp at the root ball height. get it higher if its at grownd level. 5.8 for soil and 5.5 for hydro. you need that ppm meter. for now just do the flush at a very very low mixture. it will pull more than just plain water. let you water sit out uncovered for 24 hrs. outside where there is dirt and your water gets on it, does the water leave a mark? how bad is it?
id love to help ya. if your truley wanting it!
peace
bp

I did some googling prior to this, but honestly I can't nail it down. I beleive the issue started after last feeding (4 days ago). This
White Russian is a clone I gotten a month prior. Its transplanted into soil 16 days ago. While it went well it took a few days for yellowing to disappear. About 3 days ago it showed up again. At first it started in middle (I think) and only effected the lower and middle leaves. One is yellow, probably canary yellow, and some dark almost red spoting on edges and end of leaves. Another two are yellowing and one shows these blotches near center of the leaf itself. The rest of plant looks ok but I'm not sure what todo. Fertilizer was used, Its the General Organic grow formula, about 3/4 strenght and I've done folliar spraying to keep moisture level up and some water when topsoil was bone dry. The Water/Fertilizer is 6.3-6.4ph respectively and its on 18/6 cycle. I have not flushed or treated the plant with other chemicals, etc.. If it at all helps its around 5-6" tall now. I use distilled water right now instead of tap water (because I have concern over hard water). I don't (yet) have a ec/pph meter just a ph. Soil is soiless mix with 1/2 perlite as peatmoss. Day cycle is around 76-80F normally with 27-30% moisture and at night 70-73F and 26-28% moisture typically. Airflow has been steady and constant.

I'm not sure what else to write. i hope it was enough for you to help. My thread here is called "rubbermaid white rhino cfl". Yes, I mistakenly identified the plant. It IS white russian.








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[Somatek]

The tips will turn yellow and the the leaf will slowly die. This is not what I see in your pic.

http://www.treatingyourself.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=41935&page=2

Scroll down to the last post and look at those pictures, which were from when the pot was being left to dry out between waterings (weighing 50% of a watered pot). Those look like clear signs of too hot of a soil to me, like you said the edges are going yellow and curling up. Which is the classic sign of excess nutrients I keep harping on about. I defenitely wouldn't up your fertilizers from the 1/2 strength your using now, to 3/4 strenght.

If I was growing at the moment I'd take you up on your challenge 420grower, but like Kind Budz has said, who's fighting? We both have different, contradictory opinions about what the problem is, which we've debated. There's no aggression though and we've mostly treated one another with respect. I may have been a bit glib in some of my replies last night, but it was purely meant as joking around. Which seems to be a consequance of spending numerous hours blazed in the sun...

[brainpain]

ill bet you if ya cut it you would find ther same color inside
this is neut. lock up, not positive but thats one sick plant!!!

[Kind Budz]

im fine with the discussions soma..totaly. you come to the table with evidence...not the comments that my buds suck..dont get why it needs to get to those type of comments.

also like i said...this is a new test for me. so there is somethings that i still need to dial in. learning new ways dont come in 1 or 2 grows.
and this is the first run with this nute co. each subsequent one has improved alot. takes a bit to get new things figured out. heck at first i sued the feed schedule i was supplied..well i made week 1 veg...was 1500 ppm....lol...no way im wasting food like that., so ive removed 3/4 of their products from my recipes. not needed.

and on the other thing i had said about the microbial...it relay relay does wonders to our roots and over all health of the medium. yes it is pricey, but once a person can afford it i would relay recomend it. and brand dont matter.


i looked at that pic..in the first pic of just the leaf..i see N deff. left to long and burnt it. the rest i see was to wet to often.

i think his whole issue...,besides the ph testing...is to wet to long. dont let it dry the ph will keep dropping.

[Somatek]

Using beneficial microbes are a great benifit, not something I'd recommend for the first crop or two until you're sure you can keep a plant alive from beginning to end. As experienced growers we take it for granted, but while I was working in the shop I saw lot's of people kill their first couple plants because they don't know what they're doing. Which is why I always suggest going for a simplistic, basic approach to start and to build from there.

As for the diagnosis, we have different opinions. Either could be right, ultimately we're saying the same thing though. Give it lot's of water relative to nutrients and ensure it dries out between waterings. Because I think the problems started with too hot of a soil, I think it should be flushed first. Either way should clear the problems up in a week or so.

[Kind Budz]

i think we are basicaly sayin same. just the way we know what goes on when this happens is diff...same result basicaly

[Diskrete]

I commend you all for keeping this on track!
I do agree, flush and let dry out. It's like hitting a reset button on a video game system.

[mgjschdl]

I definitely need a humidifier. It gets to only 40% at max on its own in this room. Looked at one today but a bank error meant I couldn't buy anything. I saw a couple cheapos but I'd like one that I can set at a humidity level. That being said, its on a night cycle now and 46% humidity. I can't promise it'll stay that way but will try my best.

I am using cfl carl, I felt it was a bit easier and affordable for first grow. I may be getting a tds/ec meter soon enough *fingers crossed* - I was thinking of getting that but in my original journal and pre-manufacturing thread most people questioned it and said... Why if i wasn't growing hydroponically would I waste money... So I didn't get one.

I'm still reading, and processing, some of the info. To be frank some went over my head.. Its definitely possible the folliar feeding and everything has put everything out of whack. If thats the case its totally my fault. Live and learn.

Its only a 1.4 liter container. So its not huge, and doesn't take alot of water. Its typically been pretty light when I watered but the topsoil is almost always dry so I can't help with that. It doesn't seem like it could handle a "heavy watering" though.

Brain. The temperature readings I gave you are at root level.. And the difference inside box and at plant is minimal. Now, above the lights gets a bit warmer but thats vented outside. When you say to leave this outside do you mean a jug of just distilled water (which I'm using) or fertilizer mix? Does it matter how much water is left out? Would it at all help to do this with my water source (which is well water)?

(I'll post pictures here of it if it'll help.)


I think flushing is the answer, and let it dry out.. I appreciate the help and glad there are different options and opinions. The safest though is the flush. If I let her dry out, and continue I'll always be worried about the grow medium..
And frankly.. If she can handle it, and recovers from this, I don't care if I flush now and again in a few weeks, month, etc.. for flowering stage. Since I cannot tell right now the ec/tds, disolved solids, etc.. How much water should I use on a 1.4liter pot? I'll take more time if needed to flush. But I want my girl better and into flowering asap.

Oh? And I like to ask one last (stupid) question.. Is there a concensus that the ph needs lowering or \\should\\ be lowered?
An average for the thread seems to be 6.0ph. Is that ok or drop it further? If I used properly ph'd water for flushing would it keep the soiless mix around same or will it keep fluxuating?

Real good information btw guys. I love this site, and you guys rock. I think I understand a bit more now.

[Somatek]

Let me stress that you don't need to buy anymore equipment, if you dial in your nutrients and watering you'll pull it through to harvest. When we're talking about the humidity/temp/E.C/etc being off, we mean from the ideal. It's not like your conditions will kill your plants, so you really, really don't need to spend more money. I definitely wouldn't buy an E.C. meter until you fully understand how to use it, it helps to be more accurate but not essential by any means.

What's important to pull from all this is how much the whole environment has to be considered when you're diagnosing a problem. It all ties back into itself.

For a heavy flush with a 1.4 L pot you'll want around a gallon of water, considering your plants didn't look too bad you should be fine with 2L or so.

If you're currently adjusting the pH to 5.6-5.8, I'd raise it to 6-6.2. Anywhere from 6-6.5 should be alright though. When you flush you want to use pH'ed water, and then add fertilizers to the last bit (use 10% ferts for the whole flush if you happen to be using R/O water) so the plant has some food.

[mgjschdl]

I've been offered one that should do ec and ph. Thats too good to pass up :) otherwise I agree with you, and I can't afford much else into the growbox until I get this baby cut/cured. The meter would be more a tool if things go wrong than an everyday thing. Someone asks what the e/c level is of... (I dunno) runoff then I know. I wouldn't use it everyday until I learn more. If it only maintains 30% +/- though It seems reasonable to get humidifier. My temperatures stay in range but humidity is off. Today is first time for a bit its been that high and other homemade methods have failed.

Absolutely. The room temp, the growbox, equipment, lighting position. Everything is tied in and be ready cause something will go wrong.

Well ph is 6.4-6.3 on both my fert/water. Shouldn't take to much to lower it further... and add some fertilizer. I do not have reverse osmosis or a way to distill it. I have well water but I can also buy something else if need be. I used distilled so far - I think we have hard water here. I hope she pulls through it so fingers crossed. Tomorrow will be 6th day without feeding. The pot should be lighter by then. So I think the flush, light feed and wait until it dries again.

[Kind Budz]

id relay use ph 6.1.... water and food. up there your lacking a couple main nutes../..in soiless.

id agree on somas amount for a flush.
also agree what he said about the stuff we went of fon was to be the goal we strive for, not expected for a along time from newer growers....and theres no such thing as a dunb question. just dum people that wont answer it....or cant

you realy need to not mist it at all anymore. let that top of the soil dry...its supposed to be. and needs to get dry right to center of foot ball each time to keep in ballance. these plants will do better on the dry side.

should never relay matter on ph for the flush. the idea is the lime in the mix will raise it to close to 7. the mediums ph and our food ph is 2 different numbers.
use the same 6.1 or whatever you chose to flush with as well. some run at 7 but then they never know if the lime brought it up or the water. if it was the water it wont stay there. and needs new lime. if it can go up with a 6 ph going in then the lime is fine and will help to keep the ph nutral.


leave the water to sit over night is how we remove the chlorine. no machines needed. or bottled water. in fact using bottle water is not recomended.

when you say at the bottom...this is day 6 no feed..does this mean only no food...or no water...nothing for 6 days..way to wet in there. you should be getting about 1 day inbtween feeds or waters that you dont need anything.
so say for eg...water tonight. should make you need to feed on tuesday, then water again thurs...feed on sat...so on...with no ph for now maybe 2 waters then food.

[mgjschdl]

I can do that.. by that I mean NOT do that. maybee just having a hard time judging that. Sometimes it just looks bone dry. But definitely stopping the folliar feeding. There really wasn't any lime in that mix.. Its basically perlite and peat. So I'm not sure what impact that'll have. I'll see what ph my runoff is. On previous tests the soiless mix lowered the ph by .4-.5 points so will see.

No its been a few days for sure. The discolouration happened roughly same time - at the time of last feeding, AND the pot still seems a little heavy. It wasn't a heavy feeding so I'm not sure. Given the pot size and cfl what would you say is normal feeding?

[Kind Budz]

i need to judge the amount of root mass for my waterings. less roots less water. if theres no roots down low yet then it stays to wet to long. makin ph drop.
you need to let it dry like the day it was new...the day before droop usualy
im gonna go out on a limb here and say use 1 solo cup of food or water when you feed or water. then gradualy use more as long as it dosnt droop again. you want them leaves reaching.
dont use that finger meathod to test dryness. lift it...feel the weight. want to be as light as the first day you put the cut in there before it was watered

i still realy think you may have rust disease. the rusty spots in the center more of leaf are what i mean...not thew edges

[brainpain]

just not to long. they look the best just before watering. unless you wait to long.
its important for the root ball to dry a little! not dry as a popcorn fart but dry.
i go off of the weight of the bag. i use bags. there is no better way!!! it cannot fool you!



im fine with the discussions soma..totaly. you come to the table with evidence...not the comments that my buds suck..dont get why it needs to get to those type of comments.

also like i said...this is a new test for me. so there is somethings that i still need to dial in. learning new ways dont come in 1 or 2 grows.
and this is the first run with this nute co. each subsequent one has improved alot. takes a bit to get new things figured out. heck at first i sued the feed schedule i was supplied..well i made week 1 veg...was 1500 ppm....lol...no way im wasting food like that., so ive removed 3/4 of their products from my recipes. not needed.

and on the other thing i had said about the microbial...it relay relay does wonders to our roots and over all health of the medium. yes it is pricey, but once a person can afford it i would relay recomend it. and brand dont matter.


i looked at that pic..in the first pic of just the leaf..i see N deff. left to long and burnt it. the rest i see was to wet to often.

i think his whole issue...,besides the ph testing...is to wet to long. dont let it dry the ph will keep dropping.

[brainpain]

my water sits for at least 24 hrs. you using bottled distilled water?
if so your plants are missing out on neuts. not going to kill or cause huge probs. but its not optimal. have you tested the well water. id definatley use the well water. neuts the plant loves. wont make that big a difference now. when the plant is up and runnin its just more fuel for the fire. at no cost to you!! cheaper than distilled! ph. its a personal thing, try it at the level you have 6.0 then try lowerin to the 5.5 for hydro or 5.8 for soil. dont run your neuts. to high. i rarely exceed the 950 to 1000 mark! everyother watering and if there seems to be an issue look at it take care of it. as soon as you notice a problem its knicked into high gear and will damage as much as it can! just the way things go.
being your fairly new at this, id not worrie about pushing the plant. this causes problems and needs quick attention. try it slow and ill just bet youll be amazed.
remember and strress on the cannabis is not a good thing. it will effect the outcome in many ways. its not a total loss. your at a point of makin a decision. if the flushing dosent work as exoected id start another plant!!!!!!
there is nothin like a plant thats grown to maturaty with little to no stress. they just look amazing!!!
effects are also amazing!!!
bp


I definitely need a humidifier. It gets to only 40% at max on its own in this room. Looked at one today but a bank error meant I couldn't buy anything. I saw a couple cheapos but I'd like one that I can set at a humidity level. That being said, its on a night cycle now and 46% humidity. I can't promise it'll stay that way but will try my best.

I am using cfl carl, I felt it was a bit easier and affordable for first grow. I may be getting a tds/ec meter soon enough *fingers crossed* - I was thinking of getting that but in my original journal and pre-manufacturing thread most people questioned it and said... Why if i wasn't growing hydroponically would I waste money... So I didn't get one.

I'm still reading, and processing, some of the info. To be frank some went over my head.. Its definitely possible the folliar feeding and everything has put everything out of whack. If thats the case its totally my fault. Live and learn.

Its only a 1.4 liter container. So its not huge, and doesn't take alot of water. Its typically been pretty light when I watered but the topsoil is almost always dry so I can't help with that. It doesn't seem like it could handle a "heavy watering" though.

Brain. The temperature readings I gave you are at root level.. And the difference inside box and at plant is minimal. Now, above the lights gets a bit warmer but thats vented outside. When you say to leave this outside do you mean a jug of just distilled water (which I'm using) or fertilizer mix? Does it matter how much water is left out? Would it at all help to do this with my water source (which is well water)?

(I'll post pictures here of it if it'll help.)


I think flushing is the answer, and let it dry out.. I appreciate the help and glad there are different options and opinions. The safest though is the flush. If I let her dry out, and continue I'll always be worried about the grow medium..
And frankly.. If she can handle it, and recovers from this, I don't care if I flush now and again in a few weeks, month, etc.. for flowering stage. Since I cannot tell right now the ec/tds, disolved solids, etc.. How much water should I use on a 1.4liter pot? I'll take more time if needed to flush. But I want my girl better and into flowering asap.

Oh? And I like to ask one last (stupid) question.. Is there a concensus that the ph needs lowering or \\should\\ be lowered?
An average for the thread seems to be 6.0ph. Is that ok or drop it further? If I used properly ph'd water for flushing would it keep the soiless mix around same or will it keep fluxuating?

Real good information btw guys. I love this site, and you guys rock. I think I understand a bit more now.

[Greenhorn]

ph is a must in soil in my opinion look at the chart it says the proper ph alows the nutrient uptake. I ph is out of range you will get def:(

not trying to argue here just put in my 2cents and thats not worth alot but here is some charts that may help.

Best of luck I think this will help a little

Greenhorn

[Greenhorn]

sorry but the ph lvls chart will not upload got to be one around here some where..ill look good luck again

greenhorn

[Somatek]

my water sits for at least 24 hrs. you using bottled distilled water?
if so your plants are missing out on neuts. not going to kill or cause huge probs. but its not optimal. have you tested the well water. id definatley use the well water.

I'd agree with most of what you wrote, except the above. If you're using a complete fertilizer then using distilled or R/O water straight (both have 0 PPM's) is fine as all the nutrients will be supplied from the fertilizer. I'd definitely have the well water tested before using it, around my hometown (where I learned to grow) there's around 600-800ppm in the local water, mostly calcium from the limestone, so it's an absolute bitch to grow with. It would have been much easier to learn to grow using straight R/O water. So it all depends on the circumstances.


your at a point of makin a decision. if the flushing dosent work as exoected id start another plant!!!!!!
there is nothin like a plant thats grown to maturaty with little to no stress. they just look amazing!!!
effects are also amazing!!!
bp

For an experienced gardener this advice makes sense, but I think learning to nurse a plant back to health is an incredibly valuable learning experience for a novice gardener. If nothing else it'll teach how long it takes to nurse a plant back to health. As this is the only plant they have growing now, I wouldn't give up on it yet.

[Somatek]

ph is a must in soil in my opinion look at the chart it says the proper ph alows the nutrient uptake. I ph is out of range you will get def:(


I think both you and 420Grower are right to a point. It's always important to consider pH as it directly effects what nutrients are available for absorbtion (or how much energy a plant has to expend to absorb a nutrient), but the inherent nature of soil means that it buffers pH so the pH of the nutrient solution doesn't have as much of an effect. In pure hydro cultures controlling the pH is essential as any fluctuation has a noticeable effect on growth, in the traditional peat/dolomite lime soil medium the dolomite neutralizes the acidity of the peat as well as the solution so it's really doesn't matter all that much. Watered long enough, with a low enough pH and it will raise the acidity and hurt the plant.

Let's look at coco as it's a good balance of the two. Coco itself is pretty neutral, buffered slightly to be neutral. So as long as it's roughly in the 5.6-6.5 range, you won't have problems. Even if you occasionally water with something in the extreme range (like 4 or 9), when you measure the runoff it'll still be close to what you typically water at. I use to keep my pH at around 5.9-6.2, but the odd time when I was rushed and forgot to adjust the pH, the runoff would still be in that range, maybe down to 5.7 if it was really low. If I consistently didn't pH my water though, and always watered at a pH of 4-5 they'd develope signs of deficiency pretty quickly.

So, pH always matters to a point, how much depends on your medium and how well buffered it is.

[mgjschdl]

Honestly kind budz I think you are right. The "rust" seems to say zinc everywhere I look.
I THINK though using a low fert during flushing like somatek said should work for that. Should it not? The grow formula does have a low zinc content but then again they aren't using that much during a grow. If I can add a little something to it and help, I think someone said epsom salts. I can definitely do that in addition to flushing.

Brain. Do the bags ever break open on you? i mean they don't look that whimpy but I assume it happens. How would you transfer to larger? and do they keep moisture well?

Cup sounds reasonable feeding so I can probably start with that. I think I probably watered a cup and half before. Pot is kind of heavy after the flush so it'll be a few days for sure. I put a gal through it, ph was 6.0 and the runoff the same or varied by only a 0.1 points either way (5.9-6.1).

I can try well water. That is something that probably should be looked at. I think we have some hardwater problems but maybee its within range. It would also save some cash instead of buying distilled/spring water.

Do you mean a general household water test can tell you that?

I am going to keep my ph slightly lower than it was. The peat, in my case, doesn't seem to increase or lower ph by all that much. I really do regret not having a premix, or something like dolomite to try and balance things. It seems to be more trouble than it should be. I haven't given up on the girl but I do have a seedling/propogation tray. I can start over with some seeds if need be.

I assume it'll take that much longer for her to recover. It won't take a few days. Are the effected leaves a lost cause? (meaning should I clip the blotched, yellow leaves)
If it was overfeeding or ph that messed it up thats on me.
I'd like to ask some general questions, I do not want anymore mistakes:

Should I add anything to the "soil"? (preferably home items)
Some peat washed away during it. Should I add more to fill or peat w/ other items?
What is the minimal time between flushing and feeding?
should it be fertilizer? What strenght?

If you have any other ideas just let me know. Any questions just ask


P.S. Thank you greenhorn. Perfect illustrations for sickies. I found some pictures to be a bit blurry to make out all details.

[420grower]

Thanks Soma,I know I am a bit back woods when it comes to my grow habits,but my meds are very potent and the high power varieties have done well under my somewhat different growing system,haha,but thanks to all for not beating me up to much over it,nuff said,Peace all

[brainpain]

no matter how you grow! its all you!!
dont let anyone make you feel bad about what you do!
these folks are just boared and have nothin else to do in their pathedic lives!!
i know all to well about your concerns. people need people but some are just plain clueless!
ya dont tell folks their doin a crappy job no matter how bad the situation is!! everyone is different and have different styles, what works for one may not work for another!!!
dont you ever feel bad or hesitant to post your concerns. sometimes you have to have thick skin around this place. its not as bad as it once was. keep that chin up and remember your helpin yourself and this will change your life! it has mine, not everyones problems are the same! neither are any of us!!
everyone has their own way.
you are learning most of us are. it would be nice if others saw this and could cut some slack. then others think everythins should be given to them because they are ill. thinkin of themselfs and not everyone.
sorry you fell this way.
peace be with you!
brainpain

[Kind Budz]

its not zinc...thats so rare..its a disease/fungus. deffender will treat it. its not a deff. not the spots inwards on leaf. the edges ...yes.

[Somatek]

I'd definitely agree that it's not zinc, I'd agree the necrotic spots are probably from some pathogen. I wouldn't worry though, correct the environmental issues and the plants will clear themselves up.

[mgjschdl]

I think its best to get her in better condition first. If it doesn't clear up by then I'll effect treatment. Besides, I'm kinda strapped for cash to be honest.

I haven't yet looked at some threads about it so I couldn't comment more.
Shes literally got a ways to go before she's ok. gonna go watch a few videos now.

[mgjschdl]

sorry to double post. Had a second wind before zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
... The safer's gargen defender fungal spray is sulfur based? is that safe? The instructions say spray entire plant. So I'm picturing the folliar spray all over again as well. are there organic treatments for the same thing? (just curious)

[Kind Budz]

ya it is...when i aid stop sprayin it i thought you was sprayin the top of soil...not foliar on plant?????.....either one stop. but to treat it do it. just dont keep doin it. i never even use foliar unless its to treat them for something.
and ya i get the affordability thing. lots of times getting the health back will take care of those type of things. like i used to think that was cacium deff.. would treat with cal mag suplement and would cure it. well all i did was help its health fight it itself.

[Herb Roach]

ok, just an opinion here cuz I would have to see the plant close up to be sure. I would bet dollars to doughnuts that rust spot is aphid damage.
It also does look a lil nutrient deficient with the light green leaves and they are drooping a lil. This may be from being toxic as someone has suggested.
It seems like it is two seperate issues. Either way, start witha good flush, just plain water, ph it if u can, or get a lil 4 ltr jug from the store if its the only plant ur treating. Remove one of the rusted leaves and have a real good close look with a scope if u can, the aphids are tiny, but if u watch real close in good light, u will see them move around, useually better on the under side of the leaf. If I was to use any spray I am not sure about, I would treat only a couple leaves and keep a close eye on those for the first couple days,,, and only use a light mist spray, its useually a contact spray and does not need much.
But seriously, check for aphids.

[Somatek]

I'd really just wait and see if it clears up after the flush. Less is more, more often then not. It also generally takes a week or so to respond, if after that the necrotic spots are continuing to spread you know it's something else. Otherwise it was another sign of a nutrient imbalance (either an excess or deficiency) and you don't have to worry about it.

Sulphur is considered "organic" under most systems, a less phytotoxic substitute which works on most of the same fungi is potassium bicarbonate. It really depends on what you're treating though. Until you know it's some sort of pathogen though I'd avoid stressing the plant anymore by spraying with a phytotoxic spray (although sulphur isn't too hard on plants, don't worry about spraying if needed).

[Kind Budz]

dido...il bet me left berry its rust and will most like clear when the health is back, never seen aphids make rust spots., eat leafs ya...but rusty no,.and not to often we them indoors to,.
that nute thing will cause this rust.

[mgjschdl]

I think I'll only do folliar once in a blue moon or for "fixing" things.
No real worry about that. I definitely think that was 1/2 my problem.

I'd like to say for record a big thanks. I had more responses here
and available information than anywhere. Its great we can work together and by together I mean you all saving my as-- haha.

The plant \\appears\\ better. Yes, the "rust" is still there but its not effected
anything else. Also the leaves aren't drooping, they are straight or slightly elevated towards light. There is some slight less green but in no way something I think should be worried about. Pot is HEAVY! so no watering for a while.

Mother nature has been on my side the last day or two. Not only does power go out, for second time, only in the dark cycle. But it rained and it was unaturally higher in relative humidity here. I've kept the temperature below 80F when I'm here and moisture has been around 40-50% during day and 40% for most part during night.

It is the only plant herb roach, my first grow actually. I ph'd because my
well water was 8.0ph and possibly my ph was unbalanced because of peat.

LOL Left berry.. sorry, I'm gonna guess it isn't aphids but I did look at leaves
while on plant and didn't really see anything. Also under a microscope its more a discolouration than "eating" away.. NOT that I know all this stuff, but it seems logical. That being said I'll keep an eye out though.

Will the rust actually clear up? I just don't want to cut off anymore of her right now. Plus they are on some larger leaves so I don't want to cut off something that might be necessary for photosynthesis. If she gets worse i'll let everybody know. I won't worry about sulphur, potassium bicarbonate, or phytotoxic sprays until its needed. But at least i'll know what to ask, or what possible culprits and see if the local shops have them.

[Kind Budz]

thats what ya want bud...make em leaves reach and pray for more....lol
good sign of the right wet/dry cycle.
dont worry bout that rust. was just going deeper for info. you`ll be fine. unless it spreads you`ll be ok.
i dispise well water. worst stuff out there. i know you cant do anything else, but something to look at down the road...good water is so important
im so lucky here to have some of the best water int he world and is from my tap...7.04 ph and 20ppm. last house here was 7ph and 0 ppm....no filters to.

[Kind Budz]

dont over think this to......

[Herb Roach]

dido...il bet me left berry its rust and will most like clear when the health is back, never seen aphids make rust spots., eat leafs ya...but rusty no,.and not to often we them indoors to,.
that nute thing will cause this rust.

can't say I have ever seen aphids eat leaves so I guess we are even there. They suck the jucies from the leaf, never seen them eat the leaf though. Not suprising since there are many varities of aphids and many different effects of aphid damage. Here is a link that might prove helpful with aphids now or perhaps in a future grow. But in fact, yes they do leave a little rust spot sometimes.
http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://woodypests.cas.psu.edu/Insects/Aphid/BirchAphidDamage.jpg&imgrefurl=http://woodypests.cas.psu.edu/FactSheets/InsectFactSheets/html/Aphid.html&h=510&w=680&sz=71&tbnid=2JWEH_2uzc5t6M:&tbnh=104&tbnw=139&prev=/images%3Fq%3Daphid%2Bdamage&hl=en&usg=__I0hffLtK6QPLIYmDyohYns9tVdc=&ei=wMrgS8HbL4L68Aa0l8zIDA&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=3&ct=image&ved=0CA0Q9QEwAg

[mgjschdl]

well. the aphid link does not look anything like what I have on either side of leaf. thats good to know. I'm also bookmarking cause thats probably something I'll want later. Thanks for that.

Here its been high 7s or low 8s (7.5-8.1)ph but who knows what else is in there. I'll see what ppm registers. I should do water testing when possible.

[rxb]

WOW MG! get enough advice here?? Got the flush and the dry it out going so you're back on track. Since you're growing in soilless mix the rust spots are probably from an mg deficiency. It's probably slight and won't cause you any real headache for the time being so solve one problem at a time. Mg deficiency is very common for me in coco too since it's inert as well. It won't hurt to let it go for a week or two. Just add 1/4 tsp per gallon of epsom salts to your mix for a few waterings when you get back to your regular schedule. Don't over think. It's a weed and will grow by itself if you don't love it too much. I'll get that pen out to you tomorrow I hope. I keep getting sidetracked by real life. Take care, --r

[Kind Budz]

i wouldnt say its mg either. call it what ya want. dont worry bout it. its the least of the concerns.

and big nasty green aphids in our fruit orchard do eat our leaves and make a hella mess. yes diff type of aphid.

]this usulay clears up when they get back to health and i think is why some think its a deff. once healthy they fix themselves of disease in most cases.


and in well water i belive most nute co advise to use nutes for hard water...lots of bad cal in there. the calcium we get in water is bad. they cant process right and blocks the good we add. only time we usulay need cal mag is coco. i used to use all the time as was told we need to in soiless. ive now cut it out and is fine.

[mgjschdl]

lol. hey rxb. No worries at all. whenever you get a chance to send it.
I sure did get alot of "hits" on the thread. I'm so glad there was someone
here when I needed it. I think she's going to pull through. If it doesn't clear
I may just try the epsom salts. I have some already as a homeopathic remedy. It'll probably be a week before it dries out sufficiently but one thing at a time...

Are you using similar soiless mix rxb?

She's a nice shade of green now, and little over 7" tall. So she's stretched
herself another inch or so since I last measured. No more yellowing, white or bad/burnt edges either.

I found one chart stating only the ph balance and what lockouts can result.
I was hoping some of the more experienced growers can look and see if they think its a good guide. It may help someone if they are following me or just looking around.

Oh, I'll post another pic tomorrow on this thread and my original journal so everybody can look at the girl. She's purdy!

[Kind Budz]

Ph Nutrient Availability Numbers


Hydro and Soil less Mediums

Nitrogen: gets locked out of Hydro, Soil less mediums at the levels of 4.5-5.0.
Nitrogen has the best absorption rate at a ph of 5.5 to 8.0
(Wouldn’t recommend having a ph over 6.5 in hydro and soil less mediums.) Best range to have Nitrogen is: 5.0-7.0. Anything out of that range will contribute to a nitrogen def.

Phosphorus: gets locked out of Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 6.0-8.5.
Phosphorus is absorbed best in Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 4.0- 5.8. (Wouldn’t recommend having a ph over 6.5 in hydro and soil less mediums.) Best range for hydro and soil less mediums is 5.0 to 6.0. Anything out of the ranges listed will contribute to a Phosphorus Deficiency.

Potassium: gets locked out of Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 4.0-4.5, 6.0-6.5.
Potassium is absorbed best in Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 4.7-5.3, 6.7-8.5. (Wouldn’t recommend having a ph over 6.5 in hydro and soil less mediums.) Best range for hydro and soil less mediums is 5.0 to 6.0. Anything out of the ranges listed will contribute to a potassium deficiency.

Magnesium: gets locked out of Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 2.0-5.7
Magnesium is absorbed best in Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 5.8-9.1
(Wouldn’t recommend having a ph over 6.5 in hydro and soil less mediums.) Best range for hydro and soil less mediums is 5.0 to 6.0. Anything out of the ranges listed will contribute to a Magnesium deficiency.

Calcium: gets locked out of Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 2.0- 5.3
Calcium is absorbed best in Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 5.4-5.8 (Wouldn’t recommend having a ph over 6.5 in hydro and soil less mediums.) Best range for hydro and soil less mediums is 5.0 to 6.0. Anything out of the ranges listed will contribute to a Calcium Deficiency.

Zinc: gets locked out of Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 5.7-8.5
Zinc is absorbed best in Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 4.0-5.5 (Wouldn’t recommend having a ph over 6.5 in hydro and soil less mediums.) Best range for hydro and soil less mediums is 5.0 to 6.0. Anything out of the ranges listed will contribute to a Zinc Deficiency.

Iron: gets locked out of Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 2.0-3.5
Iron is absorbed best in Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 4.0- 6.0 (Wouldn’t recommend having a ph over 6.5 in hydro and soil less mediums.) Best range for hydro and soil less mediums is 5.0 to 6.0. Anything out of the ranges listed will contribute to an iron deficiency.

Sulfur: gets locked out of Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 2.0-5.5
Sulfur is absorbed best in Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 6.0- 9.5 (Wouldn’t recommend having a ph over 6.5 in hydro and soil less mediums.) Best range for hydro and soil less mediums is 5.0 to 6.0. Anything out of the ranges listed will contribute to an Sulfur deficiency.

Manganese: gets locked out of Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 2.0-4.5
Manganese is absorbed best in Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 5.0-5.6 (Wouldn’t recommend having a ph over 6.5 in hydro and soil less mediums.) Best range for hydro and soil less mediums is 5.0 to 6.0. Anything out of the ranges listed will contribute to a manganese deficiency.

Boron: gets locked out of Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 2.0-5.0
Boron is absorbed best in Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 5.0-6.0(Wouldn’t recommend having a ph over 6.5 in hydro and soil less mediums.) Best range for hydro and soil less mediums is 5.0 to 6.0. Anything out of the ranges listed will contribute to a boron deficiency.

Copper: gets locked out of Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 6.5-9.0
Copper is absorbed best in Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 2.0-6.0 (Wouldn’t recommend having a ph over 6.5 in hydro and soil less mediums.) Best range for hydro and soil less mediums is 5.0 to 6.0. Anything out of the ranges listed will contribute to a copper deficiency.

Molybdenum: gets locked out of Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 2.0-5.5
Molybdenum is absorbed best in Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 6.0-8.0 (Wouldn’t recommend having a ph over 6.5 in hydro and soil less mediums.) Best range for hydro and soil less mediums is 5.0 to 6.0. Anything out of the ranges listed will contribute to a Molybdenum deficiency.

Nickel: is required by plants for proper seed germination
Though Ni deficiency symptoms are not well documented. Symptoms include chlorosis and interveinal chlorosis in young leaves that that goes down to plant tissue necrosis. Other things are poor seed germination and decreases in crop yield.

[mgjschdl]

I wanted to show her again. This is after the flush, about 24hrs.
The "rust" is of course still there but yellowing is gone. Only one part of one leaf started to curl upward. Rust, I'm happy to say, is not spreading though.

You can probably spot the rusting if you look carefully.

[Kind Budz]

well this angle i see no rust. all i see is what looks like a burn from touching the bulb...its to even and uniform and creates a pattern across 3 leaves, anyway it looks much better.

[mgjschdl]

they are the same areas as before. Maybee just the focus or angle.
There are two reasons why I don't think its the lights. first is I keep an eye out, and I can always put a few inches distance. Secondly the leaves are at different heights. If it was the top folliage I could say something !@$##^% 'd up. I'll try getting a closer photo, that should help a bit. Your right thought. Sagging and yellowing is gone. I think its fairly safe to say she's in recovery.

[Kind Budz]

ya hard to see with the top angle. form there all them leaves look like close to same hight. just seems weird being the center leaf is right across like and then touches exaclty as a bulb would on the 2 on either side. i cant say it did obvioulsy im not there...the pattern sure shows it though is all. forget thyat rust, if its not spreading its fine, it wont go away.

[brainpain]

youll confuse yourself and cause more misery!
play it safe get a few grows under your belt
take your time, it will show wanna see
heres my flwr rm. ive been at it for 10 yrs so remember that
everythings orgaic
peace
bp

these are at 41 days into flwring

[Somatek]

Basic and simple really is the best bet for a beginner. Focus on the simple things and slowly build as you have more experience. Growing isn't hard, it's just complicated. Just don't get overwhelmed by the different theories and views on gardening, focus on understanding the basics of how the environment interacts and build from there. Just like you're doing, keep it up and you'll be a master in no time.