Son Agro/Hortilux Comparison chart

[buddyh]

I found this .pdf file that has a nice comparison bewtween the Son Agro and Hortilux 430 Watt bulbs.
I'm posting this because it might be interesting info for folks with either bulb.
It took me a few minutes to figure it out, but it's interesting.

http://www.bghydro.com/mmBGH/others/PL400D.pdf

[Buffalo Bill]

Buddy, I am a bit dense to say the least. However, is it saying that the eye is around 10% more efficient? I ask this because today I received another brand new eye hortilux 430. I also own a Son Agro is why I am asking...

[buddyh]

It's saying that the hortilux has more inital lumens then the Son Argo.

The box in the middle of the grid (The gird represents a 3' X 3' Square) is where the light is and all of the other numbers is what amount of Lumens was measured at each spot.

It's saying that the Hortilux Bulb is better then the Son Argo, by maybe 400 inital lumens. The tests were done with brand new bulbs.

The testing was done by Hortilux, so I don't know how squewed (sp?) the info is.

[buddyh]

Ahhh, Now I understand.
Yes, that's what they're saying.
But they don't say how quickly that falls off.

[Green Medicine]

But lumens aren't the measure of how much usable light your plants get.

It's spectrum that matters....PAR or PRF watts.

.
..

[buddyh]

I know, but they didn't have that info.
I almost added that to the first post. :)

[Green Medicine]

uh oh....buddy gave me the "smilie" :eek:

You can calculate the dropoff.....it amazing how fast it drops off.
It's an inverse square.

You should see people freak if you take a quantum meter and take a reading at 2 feet from a 400w bulb (the examples buddy uses are started at 2 feet) and another at 4 feet! Shocking amout of drop off.

Also they don't call them "initial" lumens for nothing...in a couple of weeks the figures change....and not in linear form.

But this is salmoyo territory....I just install and use them...I don't design 'em :)

[salmayo]

So thats how you summon a demon...

GM, whats the term "PRF" an abreviation for here?

Is it Performance Reduction Factor? You use it with PAR so I hope its a bandwidth measurement (I always like new receptor models).

You make an excellent point about output drop off, but HPS tends to be better about that than MH and Fluoros. HPS just starts to go out and try to restrike and finally just will not start at the end of its life. Fluoros fade faster but live longer. And MH color shifts towards blue and puts out more UV as it ages.

[Green Medicine]

Daemons afoot! Me thinks there be three...

Salmayo,

There are too many TLA's* whirling in my head! :eek:
I meant to say photosynthetic photon flux or PPF. Or possibly I was thinking a bit about photosynthetic photon flux density or PPFD. It's been awhile since I had destroyer bubblehash. I wish I had a new model for you but I just have the old warped rulers of my youth. Sheesh, you should come up with a guide to show the true performance of HID bulbs!

I thought "Performance Reduction Factor" was the look in your eye when you read the "specs" on ventures warm metal halide bulbs :)

Did I say It's been awhile since I had destroyer bubblehash?

* Three Letter Acronym
.

[leroy]

You, my friend, have impeccable taste.

[buddyh]

What the hell is that?
Trich's on steriods?
:)

[salmayo]

Daemons afoot! Me thinks there be three...

Salmayo,

There are too many TLA's* whirling in my head! :eek:
I meant to say photosynthetic photon flux or PPF. Or possibly I was thinking a bit about photosynthetic photon flux density or PPFD. It's been awhile since I had destroyer bubblehash. I wish I had a new model for you but I just have the old warped rulers of my youth. Sheesh, you should come up with a guide to show the true performance of HID bulbs!

I thought "Performance Reduction Factor" was the look in your eye when you read the "specs" on ventures warm metal halide bulbs :)

Did I say It's been awhile since I had destroyer bubblehash?

* Three Letter Acronym
.So thanks for quickly clarilfying that. :)

I would have been searching for days.

And, I'd be lying if I said tracking down and modeling a new receptor model was fun. Using them's fun for Nerds like me. But to build them... ...that takes like reading and stuff. :eek:

I actually like Ventures Warm White Metal Halide bulbs, I just don't like some marketing practice.

True performance of lamps can be easier to gauge with Spectral Power Distribution (SPD) curves that are in Absolute (i.e. watts per nm) units rather the Relative scales (RELATIVE the the highest peak on the curve equaling one or 100 or something like that).

The Lumen Rating calculation method and the lumens rating (or Candla measurements) can be used with Relative curves to Reverse Engineer such Absolute curves on the presuming negligable spectral shift or variation.

But Photoreception in Absolute units similar to Lumens ratings is how I measure performance in terms of calculated lamp output. But projecting things like Photosynthetic Yeild involves synergistic relationships (ratios that are additive, complimentary and reversive) between differrent recepters receptions, and becomes mathematically complicated. AND not the subject of this thread... ...Speaking of which... ...I've babbled enough. I'm tired (LONG NIGHT :D ).

[Buffalo Bill]

You guys seem to be lighting experts way outta my league, so I have a question for you. If you were growing in a 2'X4' space and had 5 plants in that space, would you flower with a brand new 430 HPS eye hortilux or a 1000 watt MH sunmaster warm deluxe? I advised my friend to go with the 1000 watter because of vast number of lumens. Having said that, is the superior spectrum range on the 430HPS enough to make up for the greater amount of light intensity from the 1000MH on a garden so small? The blues from the MH are better for veggin, and the reds from an HPS for flowering, but.....?

[salmayo]

I'd say at 125 watts/FT^2 for that the 1000MH is overkill for a space that small (8 FT^2), and cooling is going to be a serious issue. I'm looking into water cooling for a high output HPS system like that.

I've done 125 watts/FT^2 for a HPS. But for a Blue dominant spectrum like a MH, I don't think the plants can really make good use of it.

If he vegged under the 1000MH and then switch to a CONVERSION HPS bulb, the MH ballast driven conversion bulbs output would be less than a regular HPS ballast driven HPS bulb. I think that would be better than flowering under the 1000MH.

I'd have gone with a 430 HPS at 53.75 watts/FT^2. Without other enhancements to basic grow set-up, I think that would be about the max.

BUT, if I already had a "1000 watt MH sunmaster warm deluxe", I'd just enjoy the plush "BIG CAR RIDE" and concentrate on heat issues instead. I'd be thinking fans and venting, not about what I SHOULD'A done.

One things for sure, with a 125 watts/FT^2 MH system, those are gonna be some seriously dense nugs! :)

[Green Medicine]

Time to buy a water jacket and pump....lol

The 430 sodium will "Get er done"

I'd go with a 600 sodium @ 75 watts per sq. ft. if he likes tall plants or tropical sativa's...and add a portable A/C and bottle gas! But I do everything big...:D

Bill, I have one 3' x 3' table with a silly 1000 watt MH "flamethrower" over it.
It's used for experiments and single plant flowering. Most plants grown on it have very dense beautiful buds....but ortega indica and LUI come out sparse and stunted compared to the 65 watt per sq. ft. in the rest of the room.
I guess they don't like that much light?

There is some Pure Power Plant on that table and it's going to have humongous colas...so I guess it's strain related as to whether 111 watts per square foot will be beneficial or not.

But we all know the enemy is heat...a cool tube or a vented hood on it's own
"air circuit" would be needed or an A/C unit.

The 1kw bulb would produce some amazing buds if you could keep the heat and HUMIDITY (evaporation) down...they would be transpiring like mad..

Salmayo,

Do they still make water jackets for HID's? It's been years since I've seen one....

[salmayo]

Time to buy a water jacket and pump....

Do they still make water jackets for HID's? It's been years since I've seen one....I was actually going to go to the hydro shop today and look into that, but of course a 1k check didn't clear in like forever, so I didn't.

The last time I got one it was a plastic two piece unit. But your right it has been a while since I heard anyone mention one.

And, of course, I'm already piecing together the liquid to liquid heat exchanger to heat my hydro nutes. So they probably don't make them anymore. Which means I have an excuse to build one (of all the dangerous things to play with). I'll need a jar in a jar big enough and mounting should be really fun.

Why does air cooled sound good all of a sudden? :rolleyes:

[Green Medicine]

Oooh...:eek:

I wouldn't want to explain to the arson squad why I pumped water into a 1200 watt appliance....maybe it's a "self extinguishing" bulb?

[Buffalo Bill]

Thnx for the feedback! Heat is not an issue as my attic is quite large. My flood table is ony 2X4. I have a fan that runs 24/7. So, it is as I figured, overkill. However, as long as my plants seem to love it and they do, I guess that I will continue with overkill hoping for a few extra grams of primo bud...