led/fluoro question

[rockstar25]

i was thinking of making a led project....
i now have
60red 5000mcd 660nm
200red 12000mcd 625-630nm
(50?)blue leds 8000mcd 465-470nm
(30?)blue leds ~3000mcd 450nm
100green leds ~500mcd 565nm (thinking of using just a few of them)

its a nice idea ,because i want to do it myself give some energy on preparing , to work on and make this light
but ....
i dont really know how much light is that .... :/
should i add fluoro bulbps too ?
how many ? (heat is an issue)

im making a small grow of masterlows ....like 4-5seddlings to hope for 2nice females .... propably in aero-hydroponics (seedling start in soil maybe then transplant in there after 3-4days???? ).... (i feel against clocing)

i tried to do maths but .... :/
can anyone help me out ? which would be the best combo ,and which the leds+minimum(0-1?) fluoros with decent results? the space isnt too big either :/ for minimum height box ,i'll try high-lst training, hope it will kinda help too (i dont know exact dimensions yet)

[nuevogro]

PFLover is the best resource on TY for LED testing at this point. Hopefully she'll chime in here with her latest observations.

[green girl]

GO TY! Actually pf is just one of the people here who experiments with lighting sources that are not the traditional point source (HID) that is so popular. pf has done the coolest looking experiment though!

here are some links

Experiment results
http://www.treatingyourself.com/vbul...ad.php?t=10478

LED Grow Log
http://www.treatingyourself.com/vbul...ead.php?t=7369

I'm most interested in a combo LED and floro too.
Good Luck!

[pflover]

my setup right now is a LED floro combo but salmayo is by far the most knowledgable TYer for LED's i have talked to.

Rock, the first think i notice with you set up is that you do not have any farred (far red) LEDS. These would be in the 735-750nm range and are absolutely required inorder to make proper use of the 660nm LEDs. i learned this the hard way with my 1344/90w 660nm array. these two frequencies work together as part of a 2 step photosynthisis process.

Second thing i notice is that you have green LEDS. Plants reflect green and do not particularly used this range for producing growth. take them out of the equation since the primary reason for using LEDS is to used purified wave lengths to hit the photo receptors of plants as closely as possible and there by reduce the amount of total wasted energy in the lighting system.

finally, if you are able i highly suggest making a ballast that can produce multichannel pulsing. the LED's will work best if they are all pulsed at different times so that the wavelengths do not produce interference with each other. pulsing also allows you to overdrive them. they would stay cooler and produce a greater intensity light while they are on if pulsed.

[pflover]

my setup is 6x15w 660nm strips of LEDs. these strips are 2 feet long. there are also 4x20w T12 full spectrum floro tubes. this makes a 2x2ft grow chamber. the patern of lights is like this (F, L, L, L, F F, L, L, L, F). I soon will also have a set of 450-470 blue LEDs. they will probably go around the top of the walls of the chamber but might be strong up in between the other lights, we'll see.

[pflover]

oh and i personally would replace all your 625-630nm LED's with 660nm since this is closer to the plants peak receptor responce for the red frequncies. plants will still get something out of your 625-630nm LEDs but not as much. so this once again speaks to trying to get the most out of the energy you put into the system.

[pflover]

more on this topic because i am bored.....

right now i am doing autoflowering blueberry plants in this chamber using just the floros. this will give me a baseline potency and production measure for this chamber. next grow i will use the same seed line but turn on the LEDs from the beginning to see how much of a difference they make. The 660nm alone will not grow flowers because of the missing farred spectrum. since i did not have money at the time to get farred LEDs i decided to go with fullspectrum floros to provide this spectrum. as soon as the floros were added flower production exploded (compartively).

[rockstar25]

wow
i just saw those led projects and im really astonished
unfortunately im a cheap to go run and i dont think i can go close to 3/4 of it ^^
but if i can avoid fluoro for the blue spectrum i will try it
i got my color absorptions from this -> http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?im...LD:en%26sa%3DN
so since u r more experienced with this ...
how many 735-750nm should i add on my already have little project for an overall nice spectrum ?

[pflover]

very cool site! thanx for sharing.... i see now what you were trying to hit with the 625-630nm, keep them. i would still take out the green myself. i still have not figured out what would be the best ratio for 660:735 but farred LED's are expensive so i was going to start with 4:1 ratio myself. my guess tho is that 2:1 would be better..... Sal, you got any input on this?

[rockstar25]

(i forgot to add i have bad habit of waking up the plants turning lights on when theyr sleeping ,thats y i have the greens ... they will turn on on separate button)

edit/
2x660:1x735
hmmm
thanx for the info , i think ill go have a look on ebay

[pflover]

That's actually a pritty friggen cool idea. hope it works right.

what kind of LED's are you using? on of the advantages to using 625-630nm is they come in 5w and 6w versions. gods i wish the 660nm came in the star array chip version.

[rockstar25]

i dont know what u mean when u ask me if they r 5w or 6w ....i dont see any w value given anywhere on them ... :/
these r the specs i was given for them ...

5mm red - 2.1V @ 20mA - 5000mcd - 660nm
5mm red - 1.8/1.9V @ 20/30mA - 8000/12000mcd -625/630nm (dont give typical values but i guess ill calculate on using 20mA as most common)

[pflover]

k, i know what type you have now.

[pflover]

http://www.luxeonstar.com/

this is one of the main companies that makes the 1w and 5w super bright star LEDs.

[salmayo]

(i forgot to add i have bad habit of waking up the plants turning lights on when theyr sleeping ,thats y i have the greens ... they will turn on on separate button)

I have conflict with the Green SafeLight issue. My original info on soy indicated the Blue Incandescents (not green) had the least Night Break affect of Short Day Plants (SDPs), but my seed to bloom under 660nm study showed that red LEDs seemed to work with that particular MM plant as a night time Safe Light.

If you do a test with green LEDs, please post some info. As far as I know it hasn't been tried yet. (And it beats me hounding you forever!)
--------------------------------------------(Sorry if I babble, mon drugs)

I tend to lapse into input watts relations once I'm familiar with a source and don't think Lumens are a very good indication of output, especially for red and blue sources, and particulary for FarRed sources.

Some relative LED ratios (depends on what you going for)

VEGGING (thru 2nd week of flowerring)
Blue to Red input watttage (B/R):.. .2 to .4
FarRed to Red input wattage (F/R): 0 to .25

FLOWERRING (commencing after 2nd week)
Blue to Red input wattage (B/R):.. 0 (24/0) to .2+ (12/12)
FarRed to Red input wattage (F/R): .25 to .4

RIPENNING
Blue to Red input wattage (B/R):.. 0 (24/0) to .2 (12/12)
FarRed to Red input wattage (F/R): .4 to 5.0

--------------------------------------------------
Green LEDs can have an additive affect on Photosynthesis, provided there is enough blue and/or red to stimulate enough Chlorosynthesis for the chloroplasts to become saturated enought to utilize green (approaches Blackbody absorption).
---------------------------------------

Since FarRed LEDs are ten times as expensive Red LEDs, you may want to consider a less expensive source depending on how much FarRed you will use and how much electricity you're willing to use to produce it.

------------------------------------------------

And since PF's 90 JUMBO WATT system puts my lil 20W to shame, If I were you, I would ask her how that Pulse Power Source she toying with is coming allong.

Keep us posted. I love these DIY sysems.

[Green Medicine]

And as I've posted before...the lead Ag-Bio doctor for NASA's projects has stated that the "least amount of blue light" is the best choice for cannabis.

[vandee]

Either Im having a stroke,..or I really dont understand anything that pf typed.

otay...hoping for Adderall.........

[Green Medicine]

Translated: Pf grows "Space Buds" <insert eerie 1950 sci-fi sounds here>

In a grow box lit with LED's. Very High Tech. And Sal is an all around evil genius. He's done LED's too. Knows faaarr too much about lighting to even be human.

As far as what pf typed....Get that adderal. Rockstar25 is thinking of going Space Buds on us too!

I love tech with a passion....and want to build an LED array but the sheer spirit of the fully lit 1kw bulb has me in it's grips. I guess I just like my buds slow roasted under the equatorial sun...

I always wondered how scientists would flirt.... Do they whisper sweet theories in each other's ears?

[rockstar25]

well , blue 450nm is supposed to stimulate moon cycles ... so i guess it dont wake the plants either ... they just feel its night and full moon

apart from photosynthesis plants use ~550 + ~610 nm which is used in ....producing/processing sugars .. something that they use for feeding themselfs. check wikipedia or google for phycocyanin and phyoerythrin.

good & bad news:
my 660nm [5k mcd] leds r almost ready just missing a few resistors on the side :d a nice setup without a board ,i'll post a photo of it in a few dayz after its complete (warning: diy's rnt always pretty ... sometimes they look like s*** hehe)
the auction i won the 660nm ...well.... i was negleting to pay for it through paypal and ... i tried to yesterday but i couldnt cause its over 30dayz old ... if nothing bad happens instead of them im ordering 10mm 660nm 60,000cmd i found on besthongkong and also some yellowish 590nm at 30,000mcd and some green 530nm at 40000mcd. people that have tried them they say that hongkong leds tend to be a little bit warmer on touch than others though :/
my 100 green leds came up to be crap , 500mcd each ... im definetely changing them :/
i also have problems finding high-mcd 450 blue nm , all tend to be 465-470 :/ if u have any help on this tell me


ps:green info :
Light of the green wavelengths is commonly absorbed by which accessory pigment? a) chlorophyll a; b) chlorophyll b; c) phycocyanin; d) beta carotene

ps2:instead of soldering on a board etc. i used cut a box from a tv in small pieces , used a thin screwdriver to make holes , then insert there the leds and tie their legs taking care of polarity ... i hope they dont receive it as kind of stress and f*** up lol.

ps3:im afraid on using infra/far-red cause its the frequencies that police machines see b4 they make a move on a house ... i know its very helpful and makes our buds stronger (see chernobyl and marijuana articles) but well ... i dont really know yet :/

ps4: This is a very important thing (i feels so dont think its really important lol) ... people to study each color's response to plants or anything used a prism on the light and coming out of it we see the colors separated . Is there any kind of prism that i/we can use to spread all our leds outputs equally all over instead of blue here red there ?

[rockstar25]

~550 + ~610 nm r yellow/green/greenish yellow ... (=phycocyanin + phycoerythrin =feeding/sugar prodyction/proccessing)
i have a stroooong feeling that boosting these nm's will make the plant grow faster ...eg.hydroponics=better/faster feeding .... maybe this can help too
this theory got me started looking through leds actually hehe , so expect a full grow report soon

[pflover]

http://www.luxeonstar.com/item.php?i...rtno=LXHL-PR02

[salmayo]

well , blue 450nm is supposed to stimulate moon cycles ... so i guess it dont wake the plants either ... they just feel its night and full moon

I believe this is basically what was confirmed with Soy and other SDPs, PROVIDED the stimulus is below the level of triggerring other blue responces or perhaps is reversed to some extent by the presents of Far Red radiation (Blue Incandescent bulbs produce Blue and a larger amount of Far Red). But by the same token any light source below such a stimulus level should not "wake up" the plants with a Night Break reaction.

Growing under 2+ Watts/FT^2 Neo-Monochromatic Blue does act as a Night Break as a single source.

also have problems finding high-mcd 450 blue nm , all tend to be 465-470 :/ if u have any help on this tell me

Making blue 450nm LEDs requires precise doping of the crystals and manufacturing variances producing off color results are corrected by using colorred lenses to CLEAN UP the color (filterring out light, lowerring output). If you want to see what the actual outputs are doing in the 450nm region, then consider the outputs in absolute units rather than relative. You can get an output with a peak at 450nm by filtering out about 80% of the output a 465-470nm LED with a blue plastic lens, but it would be far better to use the entire output of the LED with a clear lens.

ps2:instead of soldering on a board etc. i used cut a box from a tv in small pieces , used a thin screwdriver to make holes , then insert there the leds and tie their legs taking care of polarity ... i hope they dont receive it as kind of stress and f*** up lol.

I used a similar method and my only concern was keeping the board thin to avoid heat build up, but provided that the board does not obstruct the LED case's lens it shouldn't be an issue.

ps3:im afraid on using infra/far-red cause its the frequencies that police machines see b4 they make a move on a house ... i know its very helpful and makes our buds stronger (see chernobyl and marijuana articles) but well ... i dont really know yet :/

To be picky, Infra Red and Far Red are technically to different things. I speak of the 700 to 800nm band when using the term Far Red, while I tend to think of Infra Red as being more of 1000+nm. And yes LEO likes to play with thermal detectors (FLIVVER), but and they target Infra Red (HEAT) emissions as an indication of Hot Spots (supposedly suspicious unusually high light/energy usage). LEDs run cooler and are less prone to such Hot Spots in buildings. LEO can't see Far Red through walls or other reflective shields, just resultant heat on external surfaces. (Also, we all presume you are a documented Med user here, not a grow pimp).

ps4: This is a very important thing (i feels so dont think its really important lol) ... people to study each color's response to plants or anything used a prism on the light and coming out of it we see the colors separated . Is there any kind of prism that i/we can use to spread all our leds outputs equally all over instead of blue here red there ?

I believe what you looking for is a diffuser to mix the outputs to a more even spectrum thru the grow space. You can do this, but there are some losses to consider. You can use common fluorescent light diffusers available at Home Depot, Lowes etc. You can raise the LEDS and use reflectorred walls the blend the individual outputs. And you can put a satin finish on the LEDS lens to diffuse the light at the source by sanding with 800 to 1000 sandpaper or spraying with a clear satin or flat finish.